I'm only responsible for the part about Localizer in cockpit (and a part of the lead). And if possible, I would like to use the attatched JPEG file to the article. The main part is taken from George Carty's excellent "Boeing 707-320-Adv". I have added the explaining text. This is only an image without programmed functions, so I am humbly asking if I may upload it at Wikimedia Commons. The image will then be Public Domain, but nothing else. HJG and George Carty will be given full credit however. Many seem to confuse the Localizer and Glideslope with the Flight Director and I think the image could be enlightening.
Reply must be given by George Carthy or other with authority. According to the downloaded EULA.TXT questions like this should be asked here. IF this would be OK, would an e-mail to me be helpful, in order to prove to Wikimedia Commons that it's OK. My e-mail is email@example.com
For clearing the general working of the ADI and the ILS indications the situation is not adaquate, because the airplane is quite near (6 NM) from touchdown, the airplane is still turning, the pitch is still level and the GS and LOC indications are well outside of a safe IFR operation at short final. The heading bug is not correctly set for an ILS approach it should be on the runway heading. In that situation a GO AROUND would be adaquate because the approach is not stabilized at all. There are ADI systems which can command exactly like that, if you want to demonstrate this it would be another story, then the steering command LEFT and NOSE UP one should follow. (GO Around Power and T.O. Flaps also)
To George Thanks for this ! Much appriciated. Of cource a true photo would be better, but they are difficult to get. Actually I have visited a Swedish Flight Museum, in Västerås. I flew their Douglas DC-10 simulator (preaviously used by SAS Scandinavian) for four horus. And I both filmed and took photos, but I stupidly didn't manage to get a usable picture of the flight instruments. That was a month ago now and I had no perticular photos in mind, just looked forward to see if I could "fly" a real simulator. I haven't found any real photo such as this, not within the scope of Public Domain. Thanks again. Now I hope that a link to this page will be sufficient for Wikimedia Commons. (If You are in possesion of a real photo , pehaps You would like to upload it to Wikimedia Commons, but they only accept Public Domain licence)
By the way, I think You have done the best FS-simulators I have tried. This includes Captain Sim's Boeing 707 payware and other payware aswell. Though I admit to "cheat", since I have added a GPS-screen for navigation to some of Your excellent panels. Thanks again
John P Eriksson
To Walterleo. Agree fully in what You're wrighting. But my intention was to get a situation where the Flight Director clearly differs from the Localizer (and Glideslope) indication. Not to show a normal landing situation. The image will be given explaining text. But thanks anyway
Between FS9 and reality there exists sometimes an abyss: In reality like in FS9 all depends of the brains insvested in programing the gauges. AND: as in real flying and in FS one gauge alone is not the whole picture. A freeware simulatation which is very close to reality is the PT-IL-62M. For that the real handbook (INTERFLUG FZHI62) says (translated by me):
Automatic ILS approaches:
• Maneuvering before the approach on AP. (REM: Speed ca. 450 km/h or max 6 deg. AoA) • . Source selector for HSI on “1” ILS-frequency on NAV 1, ILS course on OBI selected. • Heading bug of HSI on ILS course. • At procedure altitude select altitude hold (REM: throttles: 46 deg. N2 76%)) • On base leg (REM: speed 420) gear down and flaps 15 (REM: speed 360 km/h Throttles 55 deg. N2 84%) • AP selector to “APP” (3AX) and push button Localizer (TOPH3) AP intercepts localizer • (REM: reduce to 340 km/h, throttle 57 deg. N2 87%) Select full flaps when glide slope indicator becomes visible, push button Glideslope (BEPTHK), if not lighted by itself. Speed 310-330 km/h (REM: 330 km/h gives 6 deg. AoA throttle 44-48 %) • At 60 m (200 ft.) (REM: or decision-height) disconnect AP (REM: if AT had been used it disconnects also if AP is disconnected.) • REMARKS: The AP needs distance at least 20-25 km from the runway and a width of the circuit of at least 16 km abeam the runway threshold. (REM: More works better!) • Cross-Check the AP with HSI RMI, OBI, glideslope indicator and check the signal panels and warning lights continuously. • Trim the stabilizer in a way that the automatic trim reads +-1 deg., from that it depends the exactitude of GS intercept. • Take care to check, that the GS command bar of the flight director announces with a short full downward movement, that the AP is in control of the glideslope intercept and following. • Go around is mandatory, if the red control lamps of LOC or GLIDE activate a second time, warning flags for LOC or GLIDE appear and one or both of the green lighted LOC and or GLIDE buttons of AP go out. • The AP should be switched off by the AP disconnect button of the control wheel or in emergency by the three AP channels (push red buttons) or by the guarded AP main switch. (REM: In the real plane the electric circuit of the AP also could be disconnected and as last resort the AP overpowered by hand.)
Manual ILS Approach in Flight Director Mode “Half Automatic Approach”:
In that approach-mode the pilot has to fly manually the plane in a way that the command-bars of the ADI stay crossed in the middle circle of the ADI. REM: There is no speed bug on the ADI and the altitude hold before in-tercepting the glideslope has to be done by the pilot. 1. The preparation has to be done in the same way as for the automatic ILS-approach. 2. AP off 3. Select mode APP (3APO), bring heading bug to landing course. 4. Flaps 15 then speed 360 5. After turning final flaps 30 speed 330 6. Hold the vertical bar of the flight director in the central circle of the ADI 7. After receiving the signal of the glideslope and flaps 30 (full down) the flag of the glideslope disappears and the horizontal bar goes to the middle of the ADI. BUT that is still not a command-indication for attitude. For that you must wait for the short full downward movement of the horizontal bar. If that is not the case and/or the descent started before that the horizontal command bar is invalid! 8. Speed 280-290 (REM: 310 in PT IL 62M) Hold the command bars centered in the circle. Max bank: 22 deg.
If one tries to handfly by ADI an ILS one can experience how difficult it was in real! The programing included the speed, the flaps position, the gear. If you were one dot out on LOC or GS, or flaps, gear were not set the FD went off!
That the FDs (or better their programing and a systematic flaw of the training of the crews) may have killed all onboard AF 447 is discussed in a paper presented by NASA:
To Walther. Thanks for the enlightening describtions and links. Perhaps You could have a look at Wikipedia's flight related articles ? You seem to have knowlidge and know where to look for sources. Never "translate" any speed like IAS, TAS, Ground Speed or Vertical Speed) to "km/h" though, as knots (like feet and feet/min) are standard within all aviation. Wikipedia is (a kind of) encyklopedia though, so detailed manuals doesn't quite fit whithin the scope of Wikipedia. There are though articles about accidents.
If we leave Wikipedia, I have to ask what "PT-IL-62M" is ? A simulator, so much I do understand, but of what aircraft ? When I fly FS9 (and once a real DC-10 simulator), I usually want to fly B707, B727, DC-8 and DC-9 etc. Old Jet airliners, preferably with OH and FE panels. (though oftenly with a GPS-screen) I usually attempt to land (also in clouds) by follow the Localizer and Glideslope if possible. I have to admit that manually follow both is a bit beyond my skill. But if the runway is long, coming in little too high, the landing can still be adjusted (within limits). So I mainly attempt to follow the localizer. And often with the GPS as help, especially when I get lost (which I not seldomly do in low clouds). It's of couce far more easy to use the AP and catch the localizer by pressing the "APP" (or "ILS" on some models) and not disconnect the AP until runway is visible. In order for the AP to catch the localizer, the angle mustn't be too large and the airspeed perhaps not too high, preferably close to 200 knots (?). I'm no expert and very far from a real pilot, but I enjoy flight simulation. Actually my dad is a retired airline pilot, and through the many times I was a guest in cockpit, I adapted some things. However my interest of flight simulation didn't begin until close to 10 years after my dad had retired. Perhaps I missed the cockpit environment, I'm actually not sure.
I will have a look at Your links and the "PT-IL-62M".
PT is Project Tupolev a Russian freeware design group. IL-62 is the Iljushin 62 simulated by a freeware design of PT as IL-62 M which was the advanced version of that Russian long distance airliner.
Knots or km/h: In my example the metric system is used because in the world of Russian Aviation and their followers like INTERFLUG airline (now defunct like the "other Germany" as well) it was used, all measures onboard, the airway system and so on all were metric. I did not translate the meassures.
Wikipedias articles about Aviation in General are quite good. But they are not a flight shool. The articel about the FD is inadaquate. Within FS 9 the flight instruction section is good as long as it relates to the General Aviation airplanes like the Cessnas.
For the HJG hosted airliners Marks AKA AEROFOTOs flying notes are a great help and not having a real manual of the airplane the most reliable source to look for. But always take care the FS 9 simulation never reacts 100 % as the real thing.
If you want to learn to fly some of that wonderful old airplanes HJG is hosting better choose only one airplane (like the B 727) and fly in fine weather (no clouds) the basics like flying straight and level, turning climbing descending. After that put your airplane back on the runway and fly a standart circuit around the airport at 1500 ft above ground with all the speed and configuration changes from take off to landing. Those exercises will give you the feeling of the airplane, so you can go on to more difficult chores like flying and navigating by instruments.
Real flight instruction works similar, I was lucky to receive one.
AP intercept ILS: Most FS9 AP have difficulties to intercept the LOC with more than 190 KTS, so even with a B 727 gear should be already down and flaps at 2nd notch. The glidepath should always be intercepted FROM BELOW (in real flying a MUST!) Some AP can intercept from above but it is a dangerous manuover in real!.
For learning to handfly an ILS in FS is better to switch off the FD, as in FS9 the FD lures you into overcontrolling "chasing the needles". In the Basic Instrument training of Austrian Airlines the ILS approach was tought by flying according to the HSI not to the FD. Flying by FD was later on introduced in the transfer to the real airplane.
First to George - Wikimedia Commons doesn't accept Your reply here. They demand amongst other things that You mail them. (and read a lot of stuff first). I presume You don't want to give Your e-mail address to the entire globe. I'm just wrighting this if You should wonder why the image isn't used. But thanks anyway ! Now the article LOCALIZER has a real photo. However without the gyro compass and its ILS indicators. Just an explination.
To Walter Reg. Wikipedia and aviation related articles. I have written a few minor avionic contributions there, but the "Localizer in cockpit" and the image text, am I responsible for. Reg virtual aviation. I have used especially George's first version of Boeing 707-320 for atleast five years now. I think around 50% of all my flights has been with that version. Now I have downloaded and installed several other 707's from HJG. I think they are better than Captain Sim's 707. My new favorite is the 707-320B-ADV v7. Usually I care rather little for what company I fly, but since the Boeing 720-020B (or 720B simply) has a Conair texture I always use that one. My dad is a retired Conair pilot, he flew DC7, Boeing 720, 720B, Airbus A300 and eventually A320. I use to be a cockpit guest a couple of times every year, especially after he became Captain in 1976. So I know for instance that the Master Start Levers doesn't jump automatically from "start" to "idle". But at the time, I had other interests than flying (real or virtual). My old man retired in autumn 1997. But from April 2006 have I flewn virtual. I began with the build in B737, started from Stansted or London City and attempted to land at Heathrow, and also other places wher distance between two runways are a few minutes. I took me 15-20 times to land the first time. And a few months (including some reading) before I put some kind of honnour in not crashing (not during landing atleast). But ever since , have attempted more and more difficult landings. Oh I almost forgot. I cheat, and have installed a GPS-screen also in some of George's excellent 707's. But sometimes it goes rather well , landing manually by following the localizer with w clouds. The glideslope then kind of get a bit less importaint, atleast at long runways. I've also landed at extreme airports (with B-707) Like London City from the west , Keflavik - Vestmannaeyar (Iceland), the runway is short, but in good weather fully possible, there is no ILS (low approach and land the first 50 meters or so) . In daytime landing (or even starting from) Ullrichen, Swizserland is challaging. And also lost cabin preassure from 40.000 feet dives (one must set all trottles to idle, take gear down first and then turn as one dives, and landing as fast as possible.) I have also flewn a real DC10-simulator (Preaviously used by Scandinavian SAS). The landings tended to be bouncing at first, but I eventually found out how to land smoothly. That real simulator was a real experience, and price 2400 Swedish KR for four hours and 15 minutes. 1 GB Pound = 10:50 SEK.
The three pictures shows the DC10 simulator, here by others than me, My dad in the cockpit of a Boeing 720 in 1979 (he is a bit older now...) and the third is a FS9 screenshot, Ullrichen 22 approach - now I am flying.
Very nice talking to You , Walter ! Cheers John P Eriksson
As you have a lot of SIM experience in instrument flying you understand my hints, that some things in FS9 are not like in real: the FD is one of those things, the other dutch roll e.g. Your father for shure can explain that better than me. A friend of mine who started in the DC-3, was Captain in the Super Connie (when he was 25 years) and than Captain all the DC-9s up to the MD-80s, on the DC-10-30 and on the 757 767; he dreams still of flying the DC-10 his personal favourite.
A friend of mine who started in the DC-3, was Captain in the Super Connie (when he was 25 years) and than Captain all the DC-9s up to the MD-80s, on the DC-10-30 and on the 757 767; he dreams still of flying the DC-10 his personal favourite.
Wow, you had a friend who flew DC-10s?! Perhaps he could help me with some queries re how the DC-10 autopilot worked, if you could help me get in touch with him...
Will contact him, as he lived in Mexico but is planing to change to the USA dont know if he has time for the moment. But in the meantime google around for Matt Zagorens paper. I have a copy of his DC-10 paper and that contains 6 pages about the AP-system. If you want that please send me a PM with your e-mail adress.
To George, if possible. One could divide the panel buttons in three categories, fully functional, functional but with no effect (like "no-smoking") and pure images (or "crap" in my mind). In Your splendid 707 panels, there is the "window-heater" displayed, but on no panel do I get a button that is "pushable". If I may, I would suggest a button (even without any effect), though Stellan Hilmersby has managed to make the windows opaque ("icey white") in his DC-9 panels]) If You ever make a new 707-panel, then I would suggest to add that button. Possibly also an Anti-skid button and a Yaw damper button on the OH-panel. And if it's possible, let the Master Start Levers remain in start-up position until they are manually set in the idle position. (I don't know what happpenes in reality, if the ignition ("start-up position") is forgotten; overheating perhaps ?