Video tutorials?/VOR-VOR navigation

[steamingsthingy]

Hey guys,
I recently downloaded HJGs CV-880 and I must say... I can't stop flying it
However, I have a couple of questions about flying these vintage classic jetliners. First of, is the 880 that old that it didn't even have INS navigation? Did it only rely upon VOR-to-VOR navigation to fly its routes? If so, I'm not very pleased to say that I'm quite a noob here because i'm used to the easy method of flying with FMCs with modern airliners in FSX, lol. (I can also handle the delco INS to some extent )
So is there any video/video tutorial any of the HJG community members have made to help newbie pilots like me get familiar with navigation in these airliners?
Any tips on how to properly fly flights with the "old" navigation system would greatly be appreciated!

Steam

[walterleo]

Hi:

As VORs have a range of around 200 NM and the oceans are much wider they had at that times other long range navigation methods so the Loran or other long range radio navigation systems. They had also compass systems which were able to hold direction for many hours and had methods for meassuring drift and groundspeed making possible dead reckoning navigation with acceptable errors. In FS all that is only in some rare simulations available. And dont forget they had ADF receivers capable to point to radio stations at the other side of the pont. Finanlly they had short wave com radios which airports far away could triangulate and give course information. Last but not least there were weatherships positioned on the more popular routes with powerful NDBs onboard.
And the pilots had a navigator with them who could calculate the position by celestial navigation.
If you are interested how that all worked (the Russian way) see that:

www.avsimrus.com/f/fs2004-aircrafts-40/tu-104-english-brief-flight-manual-and-exampleflight-atlantic-crossing-56273.html?action=download&hl=Tu-104

Kind regards

WalterLeo

[steamingsthingy]

Thanks for the information leo, it's much appreciated. It seems I actually had no clue about "loran" and other long range navigation aids. About the Russian aircraft, I actually have flown the PT Tu-154 and boy, is it a tough nut to crack.

[Dee Waldron - HJG]

The 880 wasn't an intercontinental airliner. Rather it was a transcontinental airliner. The crews mostly flew the airways, guided by ATC radar vectors. The airways are of course based on VOR radials.

OK, VOR navigation 101 (basic)
Flying "TO" the station:
On the Nav 1 or 2 head, dial in the VOR freq and the radial course you wish to fly to the station.
Then, on the CDI (Course Deviation Indicator) the needle will swing either to the left or right of the center doughnut. Make a sharp turn to the needle. The needle deviation will decrease as you near the radial course. Again, turn to the needle and try to keep the needle in the doughnut. The closer you get to the station, the more snake like your course will become. Don't sweat it too much at this stage of training. When you pass over the station, the "TO" flag will change to "From". You should already have your next station setup in the other Nav radio. Switch to that and repeat. I recommend you train in one of the slower GA planes like the Cessna 182. Move up to faster airplanes as you get the hang of it.
Next, try navigating "From" the station.

Have fun!
Dee

[walterleo]

Hi:

Dee is quite right the CV 880 was not meant to fly over oceans. (Dont know if Elvis used his one only for transcontinental flying!)

For VOR navigation there are many lessons available on youtube like that:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=f67low6D-T0

The CV 990 B was used on intercontinetal flights by Swissair, Spantax, Modern Air etc. by not using its full speed potential and having installed long range navigation equipment like OMEGA or INS. The CV 990 B at HJG is available with INS.

But also CV 880 were later on reequipped with long range navigation equipment. see that:

de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/68/DN-ST-84-08656.jpg

Kind regards

Walter

[steamingsthingy]

Walter, that picture you sent, is most probably of a CV-880M, right? But i am quite certain that I see an INS

An INS. On a CV-880. Maybe we can have the 990B's INS integrated with the 880, in some way? Imho it will make navigation much easier. Though i am more than willing to give the VOR navigation a try, which I probably will in the coming few days.

HJG pls

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Walter is "quite right"

CV990's which operated over broad expanses of water were later equipped with INS .... the LORRAN system in particular I think it was .... since we had a forum discussion about this a few years ago.

SWISSAIR CV990's were most certainly later INS equipped .... and they may have been the only ones that were .... at the time .... although wherever their CV990's went after SWISSAIR service then their INS obviously went with them too, so, that would likely have resulted in some SPANTAX and MODERN AIR aircraft being so equipped also.

HJG already offers a CV990 INS panel .... see the "CONVAIR PANELS" downloads page ....



Whilst the INS system featured in this particular panel is the standard HJG issue (by George CARTY .... and for all of our INS equipped simulations) and does not resemle the LORRAN system .... it's simply intended to be "representative" of it .... and it works very well too .... if programmed correctly of course

So far as I'm aware .... no CV880's (standard -22's or -22M's) were ever INS equipped .... even toward the end of their oprational days. The majority flew mostly short to medium haul sectors across the USA .... and those which did fly overwater sectors, like into/across the Caribbean, remained well within VOR range along such routs .... as Dee hinted.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Actually .... it "appears" to have been a LITTON/LTN-72 INS (not a LORRAN as I mentioned above) that was fitted to those CV990's so equipped .... "as far as we can determime".

Here's that earlier thread (of 4 years ago) and within which this particular subject was discussed .... and then resulted in our own CV990 INS panel ....
tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/4318/day-panels-updated

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[walterleo]

Apr 15, 2015 17:09:48 GMT @steamingsthingy said:

Walter, that picture you sent, is most probably of a CV-880M, right? But i am quite certain that I see an INS

An INS. On a CV-880. Maybe we can have the 990B's INS integrated with the 880, in some way? Imho it will make navigation much easier. Though i am more than willing to give the VOR navigation a try, which I probably will in the coming few days.

HJG pls

Hi:

Dont forget that the CV 880 and CV 990 of HJG have also a GPS of KING KLN style installed. This can cooperate at least in FS9 with your flightplan and your AP.
Integrating the INS into a CV 880 panel is no big affair, you have to change only the window 06 with the window 06 of a CV 990 with INS and possibly the AP window also. You can do it by yourself, it works via the panel.cfg.
And by changing gauges I use instead the HJG GPS the PT-Tupolev King KLN90B (no fear its in English, as Aeroflot used it!). So I have in all my "airplanes" my companyroutes available. The PT KLN90B works like the real thing, one can use the original real King Handbook. When you have installed the PT Tupolev Tu-154M it even works together with every AP with a heading-bug. Only pity: It does not work in FSX!



Here in a CV 990 A waiting for startup at MMMX to go to MMUN via APAN departure.

But please dont use a CV 990 panel on the CV 880 as some system instruments will show incorrect values. The poeple at HJG invested a lot of work in making the panels show the correct values for every model and engine combination.

Kind regards

Walter

P.S.: King Radio once had also a Loran C system in production which looked much like the later KLN90B GPS.

[walterleo]

Hi:

The best kept CV 990 is this one on static display in Luzerne Switzerland:

jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7809475&nseq=2

Enjoy!

Walter

P.S.: If one wants to fly transatlantic (Zur-Rio) or from Zurich to Hongkong this airplane with INS-panel would be my choice.

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

But please dont use a CV 990 panel on the CV 880 as some system instruments will show incorrect values. The poeple at HJG invested a lot of work in making the panels show the correct values for every model and engine combination.

"ABSOLUTELY RIGHT" .... in so far as it's possible for us to do so of course .... given certain FS limuitations, the limitations of our own skills/knowledge, as well as the availbility of certain reference information too.

George CARTY has done a superb job of trying to ensure "the very best possible" fidelity for all of our simulations (but that's dependent on using the right panels with the right aicraft base packs/FDE to start with .... SO PLEASE FOLKS .... in the inrerests of your own best enjoyment/satisfaction of everyhing HJG has to offer .... "IF EVER" you're not sure .... then .... just "ASK"

That's what we're here for

The only thing I (personally) are disinclined to advise in regarding to is relation to taking components from one panel to add to another .... only because we work particularly hard to provide ("TRY TO") what we do and which is mostly based on historical accuracy (where practiceable) if not technical authenticity too

In other words .... I won't be lured into supporting something/anything that's been customized beyond the configuration of what we/HJG actually provide as a standard product/download

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[steamingsthingy]

Thank you for the replies guys, I did see the KLN GPS on the aircraft when I first flew it but didn't bother with it since my first priority was to learn to fly with raw VOR procedures. However, I am one of those pilots who simply doesn't have the patience to fly transoceanic (but I will still
get the CV990 to mess around with the INS on medium haul routes, probably within the US).
And Walter, I do fly the PT Tu-154 B2 on fsx but have simply not got around to try any complex navigational procedures with it. All those Russian words only create confusion for me (Literally the only procedure I know is the Quickstart, lol). But I will try the Tu154M on FS9 as I haven't fired that one up in quite a while.
But I digress. I did fly a flight from KCLT-KMIA with ATC vectors along with VOR navigation in the 880 (whose screenshots I will be posting) but didn't pay much attention to the GPS.

Steam