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Post by chris34 on Jul 5, 2019 16:00:59 GMT
Hello HJG team,
I have been trying to make use of the DC-10-40 simulation you have created, and it works quite well and is a joy to fly! Unfortunately, the autothrottle is not functioning for me.
No matter what I try, it just does not seem to work. I have checked my electrical set up, I have checked the handling notes time and again to make sure I didn't miss something important, I have even checked the autopilot section of the aircraft CFG files for errors and can find none.
Here are my symptoms:
1. On the ground, the TOGA functions do not work, period. The AP status lights indicate EPR/TAKEOFF/TAKEOFF when TOGA is pressed, but the throttles do not move.
2. In the air, again with EPR depressed, I observe no movement of the throttles despite the status lights indicating EPR is engaged.
3. SPD mode (mostly) does not work either, with SPD engaged the throttles simply do not move once again.
In all cases, I am able to manually control the throttle even with one or both of the ATS engaged, in all modes of flight, no matter what is selected on the TRP.
My throttles are calibrated and controlled entirely through FSUIPC, if that has any significance. I have not tried the DC-10-10 or DC-10-30 to see if they work with my setup. I am using the Tape version of the panel (NWA domestic)
EDIT: I just installed the DC-10-30 and panel to see if it worked, and it too displayed the same symptoms, which tells me it is something wrong with my setup. Off investigating I go...
EDIT 2: I have found that the SPD mode actually does function under some circumstances (approach and cruise), but only after I move my Saitek throttle manually will the AT begin moving the throttles.
EDIT 3: I have found that the CLAMP mode also functions when engaged. It seems that TOGA and EPR are the most affected modes here.
Thanks!
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 5, 2019 21:44:12 GMT
I can assure you there's nothing wrong with the AT system built into these DC-10 panel/simulations .... as supplied by us.
Each works the same way.
Typically all one needs to do is .... dial up an IAS airspeed value .... then .... engage either the left or right "ATS" switches .... and in accordance with the engine thrust mode engaged on the TRC (either TO, MTO FLX, GA, MCL, CL, MCR) the AT systen will apply power in order to achieve, and maintain, the selected airspeed .... or perform the selected functions (such as EPR or N1 limits and TOGA).
That's how it all works .... "in its simplest form".
Based on your above quoted details and at a guess only .... I'd say it may well be your FSUIPC influenced throttles configuration that's affecting/overriding things.
I use an SAITEK (X-52) flight control system, but, whilst I have FSUIPC (in "unlicensed" form) it's not configured to be able to influence throttles.
The only FSUIPC requirement of these DC-10 panels/simulations is in regard to the WX Radar, Fuel Trasnfer System, and Fuel Dumping System .... and FSUIPC "in unlicensed form" is all that's required in order for these features to be able to function.
I'm "NOT" suggesting you've done this .... but .... have you otherwise edited the FDE or panel "to any extent at all" in order to add features we don't offer ?
Given our awareness of how well everything works in these DC-10 panels/simulations editing and adding beyond what we provide is "not" recommended.
I also assume you're using either FS2004 or FSX .... since these simulations are not compatible with other FS platforms.
Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by chris34 on Jul 5, 2019 22:12:13 GMT
I'm "NOT" suggesting you've done this .... but .... have you otherwise edited the FDE or panel "to any extent at all" in order to add features we don't offer ? Hello aerofoto,
I have indeed done some of my own flight dynamics work on your beautiful DC-10's...
HOWEVER... I must emphasize that during my testing to find this issue, I went out of my way to install a "vanilla" (i.e. unmodified) example of all different models of HJG's DC-10's to see if my modifications had somehow changed things, to which I still experience the same symptoms on all models (10, 15, 30, and 40 panels)
I did indeed seem to find a solution, which did in fact relate to FSUIPC settings. It would seem that allowing FSUIPC to calibrate my throttles somehow "overrides" the autothrottle in the panel. By changing my settings so that FSUIPC sends my throttle settings to FS instead, the HJG panel seems to work better, but not perfectly. I am now finding that the HJG panel does not quite accurately follow the N1/EPR settings, being off by around 7-10% N1 or about 0.10 EPR (which is significant at higher thrust settings).
EDIT: Nevermind, I have a rouge throttle setting on an unused lever that, once eliminated, solved my issues. My problems are solved!
Thank you for your patience with me on this!
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 5, 2019 23:46:54 GMT
I can't relate to what you may have done or where .... but .... the general rule of thumb is any editing, at all, beyond what we actually release, is "not recommended" (regardless of peoples experience) .... by virtue of the fact that everything we provide is "pretty finely balanced" (FDE-wise) .... certainly as fine as we can tune it "subject to certain FS limitations", and any additional editing is usually otherwise unnecessary. I say that "not to" admonish anyone .... or even to try'n deter people .... or even to try'n protect the integrity of what we/HJG offer either. The problem here is .... "we can only support or provide advice in regard to what we actually offer". If people edit what we offer .... then .... "we're unable to provide support for it" .... unfortunately A particular warning here .... If one applies any editing to engine, or engine thrust related FDE data .... then .... that's likely going to risk influencing engine gauges indications .... and .... it will also certainly (without any doubt at all) influence the supporting sound packs too and which are each compiled strictly in accordance with this particular data. Best I can reply here is as follows Everthing in FS is "good" .... if it's well done to start with .... BUT .... "nothing" in FS is perfect in accordance with real world aviation performance/s no matter how well its done .... and that's because FS simply lacks many essential parameters that might otherwise promote greater fidelity with the real world .... so .... we have to draw a line somewhere and accept what it all becomes "in FS". What we offer is as good as we can give (and I know you're not complaining or criticizing anything) .... based on the best technical data we can access (AOM's and retired air crew primarily) .... and our own quite substantial abilities too (this group is benefitted by a very capable engineering team of 4 people) .... but .... regardless of how well we're benefitted the integrity of everything we offer is always going to be determined by "what the FS host program ultimately allows us to be able to do" With regard to engine related performance/s .... refer to our following forum based online DC-10 manual .... if you're not already familiar with this particular information .... "DC-10 MANUAL/PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLINF NOTES"tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/9147/dc10-panel-installation-handling-notesIn particular refer to the following section of this manual .... 7.00: DC-10 - BASIC FLYING GUIDESThere you'll find not only our recommended handling procedures (stated in brief for each individual DC-10 aircraft type that we offer .... given the FDE's among each DC-10 aircraft type we offer "do" vary slightly as do their performances too) .... along with recorded flight performance indications "at 31,000FT and in FS2004".These recordings are very precise and should be what's observed .... "if each simulation is flown as recommended". These performance observations are also the result of everything being "as fine as we can justify tuning things" .... without risking buggering-up other things" Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 5, 2019 23:52:19 GMT
I had my last reply page open for a while .... and was side-lined by a fairly lengthy interruption whilst replying. I now see you've edited part of what I was intending to repy to meanwhile. Not to worry OK .... I understand your all sorted now .... right ? Enjoy our "BIG 10'S" then Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by chris34 on Jul 6, 2019 16:04:53 GMT
I will most certainly enjoy them... I can't help myself when it comes to working with aircraft for flight simulator. Having been exposed to these aircraft (and FS flight dynamics) for many years now, the slightest inaccuracies always set off my internal "Spidey-Senses" and I will not rest until I find a way around them, which often means many hours of work completely redoing from scratch entire Flight Dynamics for many aircraft (even payware).
Nothing irks me more than someone claiming a particular aircraft effect cannot be simulated due to "FS flight dynamics limitations"... FS has a very involved flight dynamics system that, with some reading and understanding of basic physics and aerodynamics, can be made to accurately reproduce dozens of different and unique effects of almost any aircraft you can think of. Everything from dihedral effect to mach effects on control surfaces is there, but so few FDE designers utilize or understand them. Some of these parameters have little effect on every day "normal" use... while others are exactly the smoking guns people are looking for when they claim that the FS flight dynamic system is flawed or unrealistic.
That said, I usually very rarely encounter strange side effects. Most often, I have found that even payware panels and gauge programming still rely on the internals of FS enough that my extensive modifications don't even touch the major functions of the panel. Perhaps the strangest effect I've ever encountered was in attempting to fix the CG and MAC length of the Tinmouse 737-200, I discovered that Mr. Probst programmed the trim settings very meticulously (and unfortunately not very realistically) around some parameters beyond my ability to see. Certainly does not deter me from using the beautiful aircraft, it just sets off my internal "realism alarms" that I can't accurately set my trim. Oh well We win some, we lose some. All in all, I commonly enjoy many "vanilla" unmodified aircraft in my flight sim. AND... when things do go wrong, I am always quick and ready with backups every step of the way to figure out what went wrong and whether or not I can do something about it. This particular issue, with the FSUIPC throttles, is definitely not unique, but I did not expect FSUIPC to interact with the panel to such a degree that the throttle axes were being overridden by it. Oh well! It works now, with no major side effects of switching over my axes to FS controlled. So color me a happy camper Thanks again for your assistance!
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 7, 2019 5:50:40 GMT
So long as people understand .... if they start editing the data we supply, then, there's a very high likelihood they're going to stuff things up, and we won't then be able to provide support for them .... by virtue of the fact we can't know what's been done or what effect their editing might impose upon everything else .... given such data editing would then be non-standard so far as we're concerned. It's not that we don't want to help .... it's simply a matter of group policy that we can only support what we produce and offer .... as it's supplied by us I agree FS has a fairly complex flight dynamics system. I agree it requires "a lot" of study to be able to understand it .... and requires a lot more too in terms of experience in order to be able to exploit it all to very best advantage. And I also agree "competent" FDE authors can usually "fudge and force" certain logic defying performance enhancing conclusions as well (as this team has in fact successfully done in regard "some" of what we offer) .... BUT .... with all due respect .... M$FS is, and always will be, "just a game only" .... and as good as the game may be in regard to some of it's default parameters, it's "not good", in regard to others. Not everything is, or can be, simulated within "the/any game" with absolute fidelity (X-PLANE and P3D may be a little more advanced than M$FS in regard to some physics and technical flight parameters) by virtue of what it/the M$FS host program/"game" lacks by default .... and I doubt there's a pilot/instructor in the world that's familiar with FS and whom would disagree. I think some people also need to appreciate that "the game/illusion" is good, but, it's "not real" .... and to exploit M$'s own commercial marketing slogan .... that's about "As Real As It Gets" ANYWAY .... and to close out this thread now (I hope) .... We respect people can do what they want (to a point) with what we supply .... but .... we also ask people to respect the fact that if they do start editing data, and bugger things up in the process, then, we can't provide support for them .... and they'll be on their own or otherwise have to start over again.
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Post by darrenvox on Jul 11, 2019 15:56:12 GMT
so is this resolved??
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 11, 2019 21:09:06 GMT
There was nothing (for us) to resolve .... because there was never anything wrong in the first instance. The reported issue arose through either of the following actions on the part of the End User .... (1) the manner of FSUIPC throttle configuration .... or (2) editing the FDE we supply .... most likely the latter if not a combination of both. "IF" people edit the FDE's we provide then .... (a) they're fiddling with something they didn't compile (at the very least) and in some instances logic they likely don't understand (at the very worst) .... and (b) they're also then at risk of destabilizing certain features and/or messing up other supporting elements .... as is clearly stated at the end of my 2nd reply above. We don't issue these warnings just for fun A lot of time has been spent/lost by us (unnecessarily I feel) attending to this query .... only to have confirmed what we suspected right from the very start. Rather than the End User starting out by saying .... "AT and TOGA (etc) don't work properly" .... .... it would have been far better/easier for us all if the End User had stated right from the very start .... "I've been fiddling with the FDE and now the AT and TOGA (etc) don't work properly". We're happy to provide support .... but .... can only do so on the basis of people first telling us "precisely what they've done" .... and then only so long as what we've provided "hasn't been added to or otherwise manipulated" or we can't possibly then know how to rectify what may be happening. We can only support what we compile .... and only as is provided by us Again .... the DC-10 panel AT system is "fine" .... provided it's used properly .... as instructed per our manual. Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by chris34 on Jul 21, 2019 16:08:49 GMT
Mark,
While I very much respect your wisdom and time you spent here in the FS community... I find your tone and blaming of me here unacceptable.
You'll note in my first reply to you that I stated I installed a clean and unmodified version of the DC-10 that STILL HAD THE SAME ISSUES. As in, an unmodified version of your product was still not functioning as intended.
I did find that FSUIPC was the cause... which is what you ACTUALLY suspected from the beginning, NOT that I had modified anything. You asked me this AFTER surmising that FSUIPC might be the cause.
Please do not point fingers like this at me again. I made it very clear what the solution was and what the symptoms were OUTSIDE of my own modifications and work (and I must also suggest, that it works perfectly now even with my extensive modifications, further disproving your point in your latest reply.)
The solution/problem was because FSUIPC was sending throttle inputs to the panel and overriding the AT included with your simulation. How or why this happens I am not sure, as I did not make the panel nor FSUIPC. However, it has and had nothing to do with my modifications.
Chris
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Post by George Carty - HJG on Jul 21, 2019 22:23:28 GMT
Hello Chris, HJG DC-10 panel developer here...
I suspect one reason why you had the issues with FSUIPC was because I had to code AT functionality that would manipulate the throttle settings directly in order to simulate the N1 (or EPR on the DC-10-40) holding mode: such a mode is implemented natively by FSX but not by FS2004 and I wanted my panel to work in both sims.
Bye for now (need to fix a graphics driver problem with my PC)
George
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 22, 2019 5:05:59 GMT
Not blaming you at all Chris .... but .... in any case "it is" my prerogative to comment accordingly. My primary point .... "after" it was declared you'd been modifying data (not communicated within your first posting incidentally) is a matter in regard to "technical support generally" and as such is applicable to "everyone else too" (not you solely) .... in that rather than stating things like "AT and TOGA (etc) don't work properly" .... it would have been better to have stated something like "I've been modifying the FDE and now the AT and TOGA (etc) don't work properly". More complete/thorough information should have been communicated by you "from the very start" .... since it would have helped. Beyond your brief FSUIPC related throttle control related commentary .... what you say you've modified still isn't evident (not that it interests me/us) .... so .... How are we to know that whatever else's been done by you hasn't been a contributory factor in regard to your "initially reported" issue/s ? Hopefully you can now understand precisely where we're coming from All reports here are taken very seriously (enough to warrant often time consuming investigation/s .... after all that's what we try to do here in order to resolve peoples issues .... and usually with a greater than 90% success rate), but, whilst our responses are based upon our own knowledge of what we produce, how it all works, and should be used, the advice we offer is usually only as good as the information we're first provided by End Users in cases of any issues .... but which .... when such information is either incomplete, vague, or otherwise not stated at all (as has tended to be the case in many past instances including yours) such then tends to result in us all being disadvantaged. Be FSUIPC controlled throttle control the culprit, or not, in your particular case (my "guess" .... however correct though it may have been) couldn't be advised with certainty "prior to" George's "suggestion" of earlier today. Some people may opt to surrender certain controls to FSUIPC configuration/s .... and that's fine "so long as they appreciate we/HJG don't provide support in regard to such configurations" .... but then .... it's also equally essential (I feel) to remind people that the only elements of these DC-10 panels which are FSUIPC dependent (an unlicensed version is all that's required in this case) are the WX Radar, and both the Fuel Transfer and Dumping systems .... but nothing else (as was much earlier advised) .... otherwise we risk some people being under certain misapprehensions. The fact FSUIPC "is not" essential for these panels/simulations "to be able to work properly" .... is my scondary point. I therefore reiterate as follows .... 1. The AT system in these panels/simulations works fine (11 months of "pre-release" testing on a variety of systems confirmed this and almost another year has passed now "since" these panels/simulations were released and without any such concern/s having been expressed) .... "provided everything's used properly/as recommended and isn't tampered with".
2. Beyond basic commentary .... we can't, and won't, provide support in cases where people add to, edit, or reconfigure (for use with other utilities) any of the files we provide .... simply because there's no way we can know how, or even if, such modification/s/reconfiguration/s might ultimately interact with what we do endorse and support.Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by chris34 on Jul 23, 2019 2:46:37 GMT
Hello again all,
I hate to make another topic, the last one was locked before I could come across this issue. I am having more trouble with the DC-10 AT system.
With the DC-10-30, both tape and analog gauges, the AT works in all stages... but it doesn't maintain the required setting. It will always be off by around 5 - 10% N1 above the selected TRP setting (very significant a higher N1 settings on the CF6 engine). It will reduce and add thrust as necessary based on my setting of choice, it just won't do so *accurately*.
The SPD hold function works flawlessly.
I have a fully unmodified version of the DC-10 installed, and FSUIPC does not control my throttles anymore so that cannot be the issue.
I have attempted to reinstall both the aircraft and the gauges, to no avail. I am truly stumped on this one
Chris
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Post by chris34 on Jul 23, 2019 3:01:58 GMT
Okay... I found something new out.
Apparently, even though FSUIPC is not at all controlling my throttles, I still have to turn on the setting "Exclude Throttle N set" in the FSUIPC joystick calibration settings.
Not sure why this works, but it does.
Hope this helps someone out! All is, once again, resolved here.
Chris
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Post by Klaus Hullermann on Jul 23, 2019 5:48:55 GMT
Although I don't have the DC-10 active in my FS9 currently, I will try a shoot into the blue: Did you try to use a fresh-downloaded DC-10 with an uregistrated version of FSUIPC?
My FS9 runs on Windows 10 (latest version) flawlessly and I had the DC-10 installed and encountered no problems with the AT-system on any version of the DC-10. The only 'problem' I had/have ist the tiny labeling of the cockpit, but this might be due the rather small screen of the laptop I'm using for FS9 and other programmes (1366x768 resolution).
Klaus
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