Boeing 707 flow valves do not "stay put"

[blueaircraft]

Hello again everyone! There is a problem with the HJG Boeing 707s, at least with the 120 and 420 models. The flow valves seem to change anytime I exit the Flight Engineer's panel. For example, I close the valves of engine 1, 3 and 4. When I switch to another panel and return to the FE panel, however, the vales are all opened except valve 1. Even the reserve switches "switch" in certain "formats." While I always land with an acceptable amount of fuel left (by that I mean with a little extra to spare - not too much or too little, which is good from a profit standpoint) I would like to fly these planes in the way that they were meant to fly (that is - following the 707 fuel procedures that I downloaded from the HJG download page) Any help?

Andrew

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

There is a problem with the HJG Boeing 707s, at least with the 120 and 420 models. The flow valves seem to change anytime I exit the Flight Engineer's panel

I first need to say there's no problem .... that we're aware of at least .... and there's been no recent updates to fix anything and that might precipitate any issue.

There's no known condition I'm aware of that would cause activated valves/switches to deactivate when switching between panel/sub panel views either (unless something that can't yet be determined on basis of information you've so far provided hasn't been implemented correctly). This not only shouldn't happen (of course), but, over the entire 16 years during which we've offered these panels such, as your reporting, has never previously been reported .... "so far as I can, at this moment, recall".

Whatever's manually selected "ON" .... should then remain "ON" .... until it's manually selected "OFF" again .... and no switching between panel/sub panels should result in anything auto-resetting.

I note you say you've been using the FUEL TUTORIAL recommendations.

I want you to disregard the FUEL TUTORIAL recommendations.

I wrote our current forum based manual for our B707/720/C-135 simulations during 2020 .... and which may be linked to as follows ....


B707 MANUAL
tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/9861/b707-installation-handling-notes

C-135 MANUAL
tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/9860/135-series-installation-handling-notes


I want you to pay attention to/study my own (simple) panel configuration recommendations as explained within "SECTION #7" of both of the above-linked manuals .... each of these simulations use the same panels options and their logic is identical also.

Follow my recommended procedures "to the letter" .... because this information states precisely how these panels were designed/intended to be used "for basic type operations".

My procedures work flawlessly .... provided they're implemented correctly.

At the same time I also want you to note the content of the panel configuration and engine startup tutorial videos within SECTION # 7 of these manuals too .... as everything should be set, and then function, precisely as is evident within this media.

You don't mention which FS version your using .... and on what OS either.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[blueaircraft]

Hello again Mark. I am on FS2004, on Windows 10. There is no problem with the models otherwise, and I would say that the valves do "stay put" when all are opened or all are closed. I actually have your procedure burnt into my memory as I cold start every time I fly. If the fuel tutorials are to be disregarded, then the models work flawlessly and there is no problem with them

Andrew

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

What I replied last night was on the basis of "my knowledge of these panels" .... and in respect of how I (personally) recommend they be used "on the basis of what's simplest for most people".

These panels were compiled for HJG during 2006 and have been updated a number of times and further improved since .... the last update (WX Radar edits) being applied during 2020. The FUEL TUTORIAL was compiled around 2008 (aided by a R/W B707 manual for one or other versions of the type) and in accordance with what's apparently practiceable using these panels .... or at least that's always been my understanding.

The Fuel System represented in these panels is similar (there may be minor differences between some of our B707 type panels .... nothing major though) and each function identically.

I do recall some "limitation" associated with the Fuel System being noted a few years ago .... but .... "not" in relation to what you've earlier described (at least I don't think it was).

I was never involved with compilation of the FUEL TUTORIAL (nor was George either .... so far as I'm aware) and for that reason have never studied or used it. I've always preferred employing the procedure/s recommended within my own manuals .... and which are based on how I know everything's been designed, and is intended to be used, for "successful basic operations" only.

I ran some checks for you today though (we do take all reports seriously). The results of which are as follows .... and seem to validate some of what you've reported, but, I'm not sure if these observations indicate an issue or are apparent as the result of something that needs to be learned and applied ....


- Selecting the 2 extreme left Valves "OFF" .... then exiting, and returning to the FE sub panel, the left Valve remained "OFF" whilst its associated 2nd one auto-reset to "ON".

- Selecting the 2 extreme right Valves "OFF" .... then exiting, and returning to the FE sub panel, both of these Valves remained "OFF" as selected.

- Selecting the 2 center Valves "OFF" .... then exiting, and returning to the FE sub panel, the center left Valve remained "OFF" whilst the associated center right one auto-reset to "ON".

- Selecting all 4 middle Valves "OFF" (with just the 2 extreme left right Valves .... Reserves I think .... remaining "ON") .... then exiting, and returning to the FE sub panel, the 2 middle left 2 Valves remained "OFF" but the 2 middle right Valves each auto-reset to "ON".


There's obviously some method, or logic, that needs being applied in order to "use the Fuel System correctly/properly" .... and which is specific to scenarios other than the "basic one" I've been recommending .... HOWEVER .... "I'm not sufficiently familiar with the FUEL TUTORIAL, or it's recommended methodology/logic, to be able to comment definitively" (and just don't have time to learn it now) .... other than to "suggest" (only) that some form of protection might (possibly) have been designed into the Fuel Valve system .... although (like you) I'd have thought whatever's selected "ON/OFF" (and correctly or not) should then remain so, until manual intervention is applied in order to reverse selected settings, and nothing should alter when switching between main and sub panel views.

I'll seek opinions from a couple of people I respect and whom are familiar with the FUEL TUTORIAL. I'll ask them to comment (if they have time) .... and we'll see what transpires accordingly, but, it may be a wee while before they can do so

Best I can do for you Andrew .... under the current circumstances

MarK C
AKL/NZ

[blueaircraft]

No problem Mark, I'm still enjoying the jetliners regardless

Andrew

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Just thinking more in regard to this Andrew .... your report .... my observations of yesterday .... and recalling other FS oddities I've noted over many years too .... and then trying to collate all 3 into some form of intelligent conclusion (difficult)

It could be the FV's auto-resetting (from "OFF" to "ON") after cycling from the FE sub panel, to the main or other sub panel views, then back to the FE sub panel view again, may be the result of "a reflex type of action" (in the gauge programing) .... whereby the previously "OFF" selected selected FV's might well remain "OFF" despite the fact they've visually defaulted back "ON" again.

The reason I say this's because I've observed situations, in some FS panels (not these B707 panels though), when the like of Landing, Taxi, Navigation, Strobe, and Wing Lights are selected "ON" using OH sub panel located switches .... but .... after cycling from these sub panels, to other panel views, then back again the previously "ON" selected Landing Light switches (usually) have defaulted "OFF" .... yet their ground illumination, from panel view, remains evident.

A similar reflex action (as a consequence of such sub panel view cycling) may be occurring in regard to the FE sub panel located FV's in these panels.

PLEASE NOTE: I "DO NOT" say this's indeed the case in this particular case .... but .... it could be "A POSSIBILITY" (only).

The only way to prove validity of this would be to set up the FV's, as recommended per the tutorial, and then observe the indicated fuel levels for the corresponding tanks .... but .... without ever touching the FV's again (regardless whether or not they appear "ON" or "OFF") .... and in the case of those that were originally "OFF" selected note whether or not there's been any change/s to their corresponding tank quantities over whatever reasonable period of time might be necessary in order to properly ascertain such .... and form a definitive conclusion on this basis.

The difficulties with this particular report are ....


- No issues are known to exist (I don't say there aren't any though), but, that's only because "NONE" have ever been reported .... along these lines at least .... or if this's been previously reported then the query's possibly been misinterpreted (such can happen ).

- "IF" .... any issue exists, then, it's likely been there "for some 16 years past" .... again unreported or misunderstood if earlier reported.

I can't further trouble shoot this report. It requires more "time" than I've available (at present) in order to be able to do so "properly" .... as well as my also being disadvantaged through lack of familiarity with the tutorial too.

I can therefore only delegate this report "to those I feel can offer other intelligent input .... or a solution if it's conclusively determined such is needed".

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[blueaircraft]

That is an interesting possibility although, like you, I can't say why it occurs or if it even occurs at all. Either way, it is no major problem.

Andrew