BAC 1-11 trim issues

[pms707]

Hi -- Not sure what I am doing wrong. In FSX, when I set fuel and payload to 50%, the center of gravity indicates very far forward. I think this is affecting how the AC climbs when the stab is set to 3 degrees nose up for takeoff. There is extreme pitch up just after liftoff, which can only be corrected by either extreme nose down on the stick or a quick adjustment to trim the stab to nose down just as the gear is coming up The engagement of the AP seems to have no effect on mitigating this, and the AP then behaves erratically during initial climb as a result of this lack of a proper stab setting. There is a seesaw effect, and the up/down wheels of the AP panel do not correct the issue -- it seems as if the AP is somehow not engaging and taking over the control of the H-stab as would happen in any other AC type when AP is engaged. 

Not sure what I am doing wrong here. 

Also, there is a horn warning of some sort that just randomly starts at low altitude -- I am unable to find its source or determine what could be causing it, seeing that all speeds and engine settings seem to be honored once I have been able to level off for low altitude maneuvering.

I have yet to encounter this set of issues in any sim AC up to this point. Any help would be appreciated!

--Alex

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

1.

In FSX, when I set fuel and payload to 50%, the center of gravity indicates very far forward

The COG position .... "as is indicated within the FS FUEL & PAYLOAD W&B schematic" (key words) .... is virtually right on the nose with the DMFS BAC ONE ELEVEN simulations, but, the longitudinal axis of this indication doesn't seem to impose any adverse effect on the flight characteristics of these simulations at all (noted all this myself) .... whereas it does if the latitudinal axis of this indication is offset left or right of the centerline.

What's evident (inside the FS W&B schematic) is the way in which DM compiled these simulations. HJG's done "nothing whatsoever" (to these simulations) to alter the default COG position simply because .... (a) to date no need to do so has ever been demonstrated necessary .... (b) if the default COG position for any simulation is altered then its flight characteristics will need to be recompiled (an often extremely lengthy process of adjustment) accordingly .... and (c) we've made no adjustments to the FDE for these BAC ONE-ELEVEN's anyway.

DM recommends a +3* Elevator Trim setting for TO and that's almost regardless of loading/s .... as stated within the following manual extract (based on DM's own recommendations) ....

Tail Trim.



This shows the position of the variable incidence tail plane. This is the BAC ONE-ELEVEN's elevator trim (or pitch trim) setting. The scale runs from -2 degrees (nose down) to +10 degrees (nose up). The thicker white line shows the allowable trim range for takeoff. The model needs 3 degrees nose up for takeoff, otherwise it may not rotate at the correct speed. For simplicity, +3 degrees was the standard takeoff setting for the BAC ONE-ELEVEN, regardless of loading (though some used +4).
The gauge can be used to move the tail plane by clicking with the mouse. Click on the left side for more nose up trim, click on the right side for more nose down trim.

I've flown the DMFS ONE-ELEVEN's (all series) "A LOT" prior to, and since, HJG's introduction of these simulations .... and in order to compile the following forum based manual we present ....

AC ONE-ELEVEN MANUAL
tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/9973/bac-eleven-manual

I, myself, have found DM's ET recommendation/s to be "SPOT-ON" .... no pitch/trim problem/s at all

An excessive Pitch response can only occur if the Elevator Trim setting is manually set in excess of the recommended +3* indication .... or .... if one's FS based Trim sensitivities are perhaps set too high. It can also be symptomatic of the AP possibly not being correctly engaged too.


2.

There is extreme pitch up just after liftoff, which can only be corrected by either extreme nose down on the stick or a quick adjustment to trim the stab to nose down just as the gear is coming up The engagement of the AP seems to have no effect on mitigating this, and the AP then behaves erratically during initial climb as a result of this lack of a proper stab setting. There is a seesaw effect, and the up/down wheels of the AP panel do not correct the issue -- it seems as if the AP is somehow not engaging

I suspect your difficulty may be associated with the AP not being properly engaged. Engaging the AP is a 2-step procedure as follows ....

- AP Master Switch "ON" (first)
- AP Engage Switch "ON" (second)

If the AP Master Switch is not first engaged, then, none of the AP functions (including pitch/trim adjustment/s via the AP Pitch/Trim ("DOWN/UP") thumb wheel) can operate .... and one might well then be confronted with both pitch control related issues and over-responsiveness of the simulation through trying resolve this situation "manually".

I'd say this (above) is the likely the cause of your above/#1 concern too.

PLEASE NOTE: There are 2 DMFS BAC ONE-ELEVEN panels. One for the 200/300/400/475/and 500 series. And another separate panel for the BAC ONE-ELEVEN 510 ED series. The AP's in both panels function "differently". Refer to the following AP extract from the above-linked forum manual ....

2.03: AUTO PILOT/BAC ONE-ELEVEN 200/300/400/475/500.



The Autopilot is a separate window from the main panel. It is toggled on/off by the toggle button marked "AP". On the real aircraft the AP panel is positioned in the middle of the pedestal. Please note: The BAC ONE-ELEVEN Autopilot is not the same as a standard FS Autopilot & will therefore not work correctly by using keyboard commands for the standard FS Autopilot. You need to mouse click the switches on this AP unit for it to function correctly. The Autopilot for the BAC ONE-ELEVEN 510ED is a different unit and is explained separately below. The switches are clicked "Forward" to turn on.

(1) AP MASTER SWITCH. Master On/Off button for autopilot functions (also operates the "Autopilot Engage" switch on the model). The Flight Director can still use the NAV modes if the Autopilot is off.

(2) Rotary switch for selecting auto navigation modes. Select the mode by clicking on the relevant text.

"HEADING" (Heading Mode). In this mode the heading is set on the Horizontal Situation Indicator (main panel). The heading is shown by the triangular bug on the HSI.

"MAN" (Manual Mode). In this mode the aircraft will fly level. The "TURN" knob (4) can be used in this mode to provide a very gradual and smooth turn. Each click gives roughly two degrees of bank, up to a maximum of 30 degrees. Likewise the "UP/DOWN" wheels (3) provide a gradual pitch control. Each click gives around 100 ft per min, up to a maximum of 4,000 ft per min up or down.

"LOC/VOR" (Localizer/VOR Mode). Holds to any VOR or localizer beam that is set on NAV1 (radio panel). Ignores any Glide Slope beam if NAV1 is tuned to an ILS. Equivalent to "NAV" on other Autopilots.

"GS AUTO" (Glide Slope Mode). Follows both Localizer and Glide Slope beams for any ILS that is set on NAV1. Equivalent to "APR" on other Autopilots.

(3) DOWN/UP. This control only works in "MAN" mode and with "ALT" OFF. The "DOWN/UP" wheels can be used in Manual mode to provide a gradual and smooth pitch control. Each click gives around 100 ft per min in vertical speed, up to a maximum of 4,000 ft/min. The "DOWN/UP" control does not automatically adjust the tail plane (elevator/pitch) trim setting. If the trim is not in balance before "MAN" mode is engaged, it can drastically affect the vertical speed given by this control. If the "DOWN/UP" control appears not to work, adjust tail plane trim until it does. It is not advisable to use the "DOWN/UP" control during a turn. Always use altitude hold instead during a turn.

(4) TURN. This control only works in "MAN" mode. The "TURN" knob can be used in manual Mode to provide a very gradual and smooth turn. Each click gives around two degrees of bank, up to a maximum of 30 degrees.

(5) DAMPER. Switch down for Yaw Damper only. Autopilot will disengage.

(6) ALT. When selected, this will hold the current altitude.


2.03A: AUTO PILOT/BAC ONE-ELEVEN 510ED.



(1) A/P Engage 1 & 2. On/Off button for Autopilot functions. Switch down for Yaw Damper only and the Autopilot will then be disengaged. The Flight Director can still use the NAV modes if the Autopilot is off. The Auto Throttle works independently of "A/P Engage". The real aircraft also had an "Autopilot Master" switch, but this is fixed in the "ON" position on the model.

(2) F/Dir. Flight Director on/off switch. The Flight Director displays required bank and pitch commands on the attitude indicator (main panel). FD can be switched off while the Autopilot is running and can also be switched on while the Autopilot is off.

(3) Speed Hold. The Speed hold has two modes. "Throttle" holds the selected indicated air speed by use of the auto throttle. "IAS" holds the selected Indicated air speed by adjusting pitch. This is not an Auto Throttle control. For each mode, speed hold is only active when the "Engage" switch is "ON". The target speed can be selected in the Select Speed window above. "IAS" mode is used for climb and descent (for e.g. set climb power 11,800 RPM, then engage "IAS" mode when at climb speed (300 kt) and it will then keep adjusting your climb rate to maintain the selected speed. "Height Lock" cannot be used at the same time as IAS mode. Engaging "IAS" mode will automatically disengage "Height Lock" and vice versa. "Height Lock" can be used with "Throttle" mode though."Height Acquire" can be used with all speed hold modes.

(4) Azimuth Master. This switch activates both "Heading Hold" and "NAV Hold". "Heading" mode or "NAV" mode is set using a switch on the Horizontal Situation Indicator (main panel). The switch points up for "Nav" mode and points right for Heading mode. The relevant bug is pictured next to the switch.



The Heading and Course (Nav) to hold are set using the knobs on the HSI.

(5) G/P Auto & Prime Land. This selects the use of Approach mode and Auto land. Engaging "G/P Auto" is the equivalent of the normal approach ("APR") mode on a standard FS Autopilot. With "G/P Auto" engaged, the autopilot will capture and follow any ILS beam tuned to NAV1. If "G/P Auto" is engaged, then also engaging "Prime Land" will activate a full automated landing. Similar to the real thing, Auto Land activates a more accurate approach phase in the model at around 1,000 ft (radio Alt) and (hopefully) guarantees that the aircraft will land on the runway, even in a strong cross wind. At the correct moment, Auto Land cuts the throttle and performs a flare. Selecting "Glide Gearing" cancels the Auto Land and returns you to the normal approach mode. Selecting "Man" cancels approach mode and Auto Land (if it was active).

(6) Height Hold. Height hold has two modes. "Lock" holds the current height. "Acquire" climbs or descends to the selected height and reverts to "Lock" mode when it gets there.
Each Height mode is only active when the "Engage" switch is "ON". The selected height can be set at any time by clicking the height selection knob. When Acquire mode is selected, the vertical "Pitch" thumb wheel in the middle of the unit sets the vertical speed. "Height Lock" can be used when "Throttle" mode is engaged, but never with IAS mode. IAS mode will automatically disengage Height Lock and vice versa. "Height Acquire" can be used at the same time as all speed hold modes. When the target height is reached "Height Acq" will automatically switch to "Height Lock" mode. If "IAS" mode is also in use when the target height is reached IAS mode will automatically switch to "Throttle" mode instead.

3.

Also, there is a horn warning of some sort that just randomly starts at low altitude

That sounds like the "Pressurization" warning horn. If one fails to set a Cabin Pressurization value prior to TO, or does so incorrectly, then the associated horn will be triggered automatically .... somewhere between 10,000 FT and 15,000 FT.

Again from the manual ....

Cabin Alt to Baro Pressure.



Used to regulate cabin altitude (cabin pressure). The "A" knob on the left selects the required cabin altitude selectable from -2,000 to +9,000 ft. The "R" knob on the right selects the rate at which cabin altitude is altered (between 150 and 1,000 ft/min). The knob in the middle adjusts the reference pointer at the top. Set it to current pressure in inches of Mercury. Note that the aircraft will only pressurize if the Safety Valve switch is "CLOSED".

Cabin Altitude.



Full display in VC only. Shows the current cabin altitude from 0 to 40,000 ft. Also shows the current pressure differential on the hull in PSI from 0 to 10 (max 7.5). The required cabin pressure is set using the Cabin Alt to Baro Pressure gauge above. If the cabin alt rises above 10,000 ft a warning horn sounds and the amber Cabin Height lamp will light. (Click to cancel). Again note that the aircraft will only pressurize if the Safety Valve switch is "CLOSED".

Cabin Altitude VSI.



VC only. Shows the current rate of change in cabin altitude from 0 to 2,000 ft per min. The required cabin pressure and rate of change is set using the "Cabin Alt To Baro Pressure" gauge above.

BAC ONE-ELEVEN aircraft generally cruise at around FL250 .... "after a MGW TO". They can go higher (of course) following any significantly lower weight TO and/or subject to fuel (weight) burn-off) en-route to one's virtual destination, but again, FL250 is a good "initial cruising altitude" over most typical BAC-ONE ELEVEN routes. In conjunction with the above recommended DMFS recommendations I (from memory) usually set the Cabin Pressurization at around 5,000 FT for FL250 cruise .... and a little higher for higher altitude cruise levels. If the horn is triggered, then, an orange/amber lamp also illuminates (from memory I think it's located near/around the bottom right of the Maun Panel. Just click on this lamp in order to extinguish the illumination and cancel the horn .... and recheck that your Cabin Altitude values have been correctly set in accordance with DM's recommendations,

I believe all's well with the DMFS BAC ONE-ELEVEN simulations.

As with most simulations there's a learning curve associated with one's adapting to them .... but once understood/adapted to these simulations are then "A REAL PLEASURE TO FLY"

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Don't want to bombard you with too much information to absorb beyond what I've explained above and quoted per extracts from my forum based manual, but, in the case of TO trim .... and applying the correct setting in particular. If you run the DMFS checklist "in the panel" .... once the correct +3* Elevator Trim setting has been correctly applied a "BLUE TICK" will appear beside this particular checklist item. If you've not been using this checklist then you may have been setting Elevator Trim well in excess of the recommended +3* setting .... and without realizing such .... and which will result in excessive pitch after TO.

The other possibilities remain as I related per my #1 and #2 commentary above. There's no known pitch/trim related issues with any of the DMFS BAC ONE-ELEVEN simulations though in either FS2004 or FSX,

The cause of the warning horn activation though is definitely in regard to Cabin Pressurization having not been set correctly.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[pms707]

Sept 4, 2023 9:25:05 GMT aerofoto - HJG Admin said:

Don't want to bombard you with too much information to absorb beyond what I've explained above and quoted per extracts from my forum based manual, but, in the case of TO trim .... and applying the correct setting in particular. If you run the DMFS checklist "in the panel" .... once the correct +3* Elevator Trim setting has been correctly applied a "BLUE TICK" will appear beside this particular checklist item. If you've not been using this checklist then you may have been setting Elevator Trim well in excess of the recommended +3* setting .... and without realizing such .... and which will result in excessive pitch after TO.

The other possibilities remain as I related per my #1 and #2 commentary above. There's no known pitch/trim related issues with any of the DMFS BAC ONE-ELEVEN simulations though in either FS2004 or FSX,

The cause of the warning horn activation though is definitely in regard to Cabin Pressurization having not been set correctly.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

Hey Mark -- No worries -- bombs away! Since your replies I have been traveling and unable to implement any solutions. One thing that did also occur prior to hearing back from you was that in level off for cruise, the AC began porpoising 300 feet plus/minus with the altitude hold switch engaged. I could only correct this by switching off autopilot altogether, and even once turned back on, the porpoising began again, 

I did discover the cabin altitude horn successfully...

I was certain each time to set the T/O pitch at 3 degrees (I did read the manuals that came with the download prior to the first flight). And I am using the correct -400 panel. Takeoff pitch-up with 3 degrees set at wheels up was successfully mitigated a couple of times by quick adjustment on the joystick buttons I have programmed for stab trim up/down before autopilot engagement (which I also discovered needs use of the toggles to engage rather than just the Z keyboard command), but this is annoying -- and something that should not necessarily need to be done and does not occur in any other of my models, which settle naturally into a desired initial climb angle with the proper T/O pitch set (The DM Trident 2E is an example -- no issues with TO trim at the indicated setting in the provided manual). On the 1-11, once the trim is manually reduced (or enough nose down on the stick is given) at wheels up and the AP is engaged, the climb is established and everything works fine -- until the porpoising begins at level off (this is since having realized the issue with correctly switching on the AP. 

I would cheat the model's real-life procedural 3 degrees with a lesser number of 2 or even 1.5 and just use more elevator for rotation, but the model sounds a horn unless 3 degrees is set for T/O, and I can't find anywhere to cancel this, 

As you mentioned, the other option is to reduce trim sensitivity in FSX. I read one way to do it was via aircraft.cfg by modifying the entry "elevator_trim_effectiveness=1.0" to a lower number like .30 and then see what happens, which I guess I could give a try. My question is -- will this affect how the AP adjusts the trim -- and not just produce a desired result for MANUAL application of stab trim? Hopefully yes -- because this might help fix the porpoising issue. If not, is there any other suggestion you have or a way via FSX settings or joystick settings to minimize the level of input to the stab? I will have a look when I get home. 

I will start using the checklist as you recommend and see what happens. This is a fab little model and I am an outstanding livery painter, so I have done some really nice detailed paints of my own for the AI version of this which I have had in my 1968-69 sim for quite a while. I upped the 512 textures to 1024 which really seals the deal for the flyable versions...

Thanks!

--Alex

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

As you mentioned, the other option is to reduce trim sensitivity in FSX.

Actually .... I was meaning Trim sensitivity "in FS itself". In particular that associated with your controller device and not the actual add-on simulation. I was hazarding a guess that Trim response, via your controller device, and through FS, could be a contributing factor in regard to what you reported yesterday .... since I'm aware of reports, over the past 23 years, to the effect that Trim response, per controller device assignments, can be overly sensitive.

It's entirely up to you .... but .... my advice is "NEVER" edit the CFG values we provide "unless one's an FS doctor" and is fully conscious of the potential consequences of editing particular parameters (I'm not implying you don't know BTW .... I'm merely not encouraging it ). What we offer's been well tested prior to release and doesn't go up until we're satisfied (in fact we've an extension to the HJG hosted CARAVELLE line that's been delayed constantly due to a panel related issue that's proving difficult to resolve). The other problem associated with people editing the FDE values we provide (and have otherwise proven fine) is once such is done it then becomes extremely difficult for us to provide support .... as the edited simulation is then "potentially" out of synch with what we know and recommend. That's why we generally decline supporting anything edited beyond the specifications of what we supply or otherwise endorse.

My question is -- will this affect how the AP adjusts the trim

I very much doubt it .... as the value to which you refer governs the sensitivity of Trim response per AP or manual input. When I say "MANUAL INPUT" I'm referring to the use of "HOME" (Trim down) and "END" (TRIM up) keyboard commands .... which IMHO result in far more subtle Trim response/s from my personal experience.

in level off for cruise, the AC began porpoising 300 feet plus/minus with the altitude hold switch engaged

Needless to say, but, it shouldn't do that (of course) .... and there's been no reports of such (that I'm aware of at least) since HJG introduced the DMFS BAC ONE-ELEVEN simulations .... or up until the period DM last worked on the file he himself provided and which was around 2010/12 as I recall.

What altitude were you at ? .... and .... What airspeed were you flying ?

Following any MGW TO one shouldn't be flying in excess of FL250 or around MACH 0.75.

REMEMBER .... BAC ONE-ELEVEN's aren't (really) high altitude or fast flyers.


FOLLOWING THOUGHT ALSO OCCURRED TO ME ....


We know there's at least one other version of the DMFS BAC ONE-ELEVEN panels available on the web. These aren't what DM produced .... and were released "BEFORE" HJG was authorized to host and represent the DMFS simulations. During 2020 we did edit the original DMFS panels (all of them) in regard to fixing "all of their previously known issues" (none of which were associated with the AP or Trim BTW .... but the FDE for these/both the BAC ONE-ELEVEN and COMET simulations in this case .... remained unedited). What I specifically need to know is ....

Are you using the DMFS panels, and FDE/base packs, that are "currently downloadable from the HJG website" or is any of what you're using been sourced from elsewhere ?

It's just that I can't replicate what you're reporting

The DMFS files we offer are "the latest versions available". These files shouldn't be paired/blended with any previously released data .... and nor should any previous and non-HJG released versions of files/data for the DMFS simulation be used with what "we/HJG currently offer". Everything used should be what we provide "HERE". Again .... I'm not implying you might using something else .... I'm merely trying to establish whether or not everything you're currently using has come from the HJG website and is the currently downloadable files and nothing earlier.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[pms707]

Mark -- all panels were downloaded from HJG when I downloaded the latest versions of the models. I will check again and reinstall them just to make sure. I replaced the needed file exceptions with their FSX counterparts in the designated folders. I also made sure the aircraft.cfg files were switched to the correct FSX versions. I am going to check all this again.

Regarding porpoising -- I was at varying altitudes and speeds -- I will have to pinpoint if I can recreate the scenario. I think the level off was at 27,000 around Mach .7? There had been a lot of irregular inputs into the system at that point since it was one of my first flights and there was a lot of adjustment going on. It may have been a one off, and might not happen again. I am aware of the altitude and speed limitations of the 1-11. But I may have been too high. Nevertheless, the porpoising continued throughout the descent (initiated via the AP DOWN switch) and persisted during level off around 24,000. I turned off the AP and the porpoising stopped -- only to start again as soon as the AP and altitude hold was reengaged.

The flight was set at 50% fuel in all three tanks and a light payload of 5000 vs the default 14000 btw -- not at max gross weight. It occurred to me I only now just read that the wing tanks remain full until the center tank empties -- maybe this was playing games with the system somehow. Should I just leave the center tank empty from now on for lighter fuel loads?

Will fiddle with the joystick input -- otherwise will try sticking to the keyboard for input commands for the stab and see how that rolls. Also will hold off on adjusting via the aircraft.cfg until I can play with a few things and see where there is equilibrium here. I am away from my sim but will be home again tomorrow and will investigate and report...

One of the things I still can't figure out -- why the need to trim the AC nose down more or less immediately at liftoff using the 3% setting? Doesn't this mean that the H-stab trim is set too aggressively to nose up from the get go? I am using my mouse control wheel and setting the stab wheel number using the tool tip to confirm 3 degrees each time -- so I know for certain I am not inadvertently setting it higher than that. Unless I immediately trim the nose down, the AC will be at a 30 degree climb angle within 10-15 seconds unless AP is engaged or significant nose down is applied vis the yoke. This is following all of your recommended procedures. Is this normal?

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

I had to ask that question in regard to file sourcing etc .... just to be certain we're reading the same page of the same book.

Is this normal?

"NO" .... none of what you've reported is the least bit normal at all.

I've neither experienced what you report nor been aware of any other reports either .... and that's in regard to both FS2004 or FSX use of these files.

A file corruption during downloading is "RARE" (it can, and has, happened in the past though and for whatever reason) .... so you could, perhaps, try deleting what you have, redownloading, and then reinstalling "EVERYTHING" again.

Over the past 23 years of HJG's existence there have been "a few" reports of problems being experienced with files that might have been corrupted during downloading (in the case of files with which no issues are known to exist) .... an when these are removed, "redownloaded", reinstalled, and reused the former issue's suddenly no longer existent.

I'd like to hope the solution is that simple (for you) .... otherwise I've no solution or further advice to offer knowing the files are fine .... or at least they were when they went up.

The following thought just/belatedly occurred to me also .... "IF" you're using these simulation in FSX and with the WINDOWS 11 environment, then unfortunately, I'm unable to assist you.

We can't vouch for anything we offer here if it's used with WIN 11

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Should I just leave the center tank empty from now on for lighter fuel loads?

It shouldn't matter. Adjusting Fuel Tank quantities (center or outboard) "prior to loading the simulation" into FS should have no effect whatsoever upon stability during either manual or AP controlled flight. Among many tests I perform during often lengthy periods of pre-release assessment .... is flight testing with full tanks and full payload (an overweight condition for many simulations) in order to assess how each simulation performs even in this condition. I then retest .... using my own recommended procedure of adjusting the Center Tank/s fuel only (with no payload adjustment/s) in order to set any simulation at/near its MGW. Finally I also then retest by adjusting fuel "inflight" and in all tanks to just 20% each (again no payload adjustment/s) when I assess the approach to landing performance of any simulation. The BAC ONE-ELEVEN's (all versions) passed each of these tests. No problems .... flight stability or otherwise .... were encountered during either manual or AP controlled flight .... "in my case".

I hasten to add though .... in the case of "some" simulations it's been recorded/noted that if one makes "significant fuel (weight) adjustment/s (reduction normally) to fuel loadings "inflight", then, such can, sometimes, result in instability during AP controlled flight as the simulation suddenly needs to adjust to the revised weight. Fuel (weight) is something that progressively and slowly reduces in accordance with the duration of any FS flight and which any simulation gradually adjusts to, but, if this process is interrupted by like of a significant and sudden fuel (weight again) reduction for example, then, such can (but not always) affect stability during AP controlled flight. I seem to recall briefly experiencing this (during VC10 testing I think), but, as it was "a self imposed situation" I considered it of no consequence to report .... as few, if anyone, would ever encounter this. I've never experienced this with any of the ONE-ELEVEN's though.

One of the things I still can't figure out -- why the need to trim the AC nose down more or less immediately at liftoff using the 3% setting? Doesn't this mean that the H-stab trim is set too aggressively to nose up from the get go?

Ton answer this I need to come back to what I earlier mentioned in regard to the CHECKLIST feature compiled into all DMFS panels (not to be confused interactive manual and which can't work in FSX anyway). Obviously I can't see precisely what you doing .... therefore .... can only try'n assume what you might be doing "on the basis of what you describe", so, bear with me (please) as I discuss this particular detail once again.

A bank of sub panel selection icons is designed into each DMFS panel (including those for BAC ONE-ELEVEN's). From memory (I'm away from FS at the moment) this feature is commanded into view using the small "i" icon located on the main panel (above the AI gauge and below the windshield). Among the bank of sub panel selection icons presented within this feature is one to command the CHEKLIST into view .... it's accessed per the "2nd from last icon" among the bottom row of sub panel selection icons. There are multiple pages to this CHECKLIST. One of the items on this CHECKLIST is for the Elevator Trim TO setting. It's essential/best to use key stroke/tab "END" (Trim Up) to set the Elevator Trim axis for TO .... tap the "END" key repeatedly until a "BLUE TICK" is displayed beside the Elevator Trim item on the CHECKLIST. This action will then ensure "the precise +3* Elevator Trim axis has in fact been set". If one simply uses their MK-1 eyeball in order to try'n determine a +3 degree axis per the Elevator Trim gauge, then, one could easily be setting an axis outside the recommended +3* Elevator Trim TO setting .... and such "WOULD" (without the slightest doubt) then result in excessive pitch up immediately after TO .... requiring rapid manual pitch down being applied (key stroke/tab "HOME) to counter this. Always set Elevator Trim for TO in accordance with the DMFS panel/s CHECKLIST and "BLUE TICKED" confirmation of the correct axis having been set.

ALSO .... I earlier expressed reservation/s in regard to FSX and WINDOWS 11. PLEASE NOTE: it's not a case that these simulations won't work work in FSX and within the WINDOES 11 environment (because it's been reliably reported they do). It's simply a matter of our not being able to "personally" verify the integrity of our simulations in WINDOWS 11. I just need to clarify this particular detail.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[pms707]

Hey Mark -- Got home and have been able to do more practice flights, getting used to this fantastic little plane. I reinstalled everything from scratch -- from the HJG website -- panels and models -- most of which are from October 2021, I believe. Everything is working more or less fine. The trim issue is just that but not as pronounced since I adjusted the sensitivity. I still must trim the nose down on the stab a few clicks at gear retraction, which is normal I suppose, and then engaging the autopilot allows selection of a 15 degree initial climb angle using the up/down dial on the AP panel. Using flaps 8 seems to cause less drastic of an immediate increase in the climb angle before trimming it. I am OK with this...

The porpoising has not reappeared -- it was a one-off likely due to overstimulation of input or something. 

One question: Is calling out "DON'T SINK" a part of normal 1-11 final approach procedures? I can't determine if there is anything abnormal about my approach config that would cause this. Speeds are always good and gear and flaps are properly configured. What's the deal with this, is it a vestige of the crash that happened during initial flight testing with the stall issues?

One more question: Why does the ADF indicator on both DM 1-11 and Trident not show direction when tuned to the ILS/DME frequency within the typical 27 miles? Other models do this -- but I can only get the DM models' ADF arrows to show the direction of the source when the AC is beyond the signal of the DME at 27 miles. Once the DME signal is found by the NAV radio and the DME distance shows in the HSI, the ADF arrows return to a neutral position. This makes using the ADF impossible once the DME signal is accquired. 

One important note for you: The positioning of the exhaust smoke for the smoke system is incorrect on all of the 1-11s -- both flyable and AI. The locations designated in your aircraft.cfg files for each place the smoke trails above and below the left wing near the center of the aircraft and off to the left.

I moved their locations in MCX. Here are the correct coordinates:

200 through 475

[SMOKESYSTEM]
Smoke.0=-30.50, -7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_R
Smoke.1=-30.50, 7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_L
Smoke.2=-30.50, -7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_R
Smoke.3=-30.50, 7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_L

500 and 510

[SMOKESYSTEM]
Smoke.0=-35.50, -7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_R
Smoke.1=-35.50, 7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_L
Smoke.2=-35.50, -7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_R
Smoke.3=-35.50, 7.2, 3.00, DM_1-11_SMOKE_L

Thanks for your kind help in sorting all of this out!

--Alex

PS I have Benoit's sound installed and from inside the cockpit, the high-pitched whine of the Speys during approach with the thrust changes is exactly how I remember them sounding from inside the cabin on so many Allegheny BAC 1-11 flights all over the East Coast during the 70s when I was a kid...

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

No problem Alex. We do this because we like it .... and also in order to try'n help other people enjoy what we do and like too.

There's very few, if any, issues associated with anything we release (or we simply don't release it .... as is currently the case with the still held up CARAVELLE version) .... BUT .... if there's ever anything that we can't address but need people to be aware of (and it's always minor), then, we post such notices within the "KNOWN ISSUES" section at the end of "SECTION 1" of each of our forum based manuals. The only thing that can trouble us sometimes is .... some issues people report aren't universally experienced .... and these can become difficult, sometimes impossible, to resolve especially in the case of hardware interaction and/or the use of other FS modules/utilities that aren't part of the simulations we offer.

ANYWAY .... I'm pleased you appear to be making progress subsequent to your recent reinstallation of the BAC ONE-ELEVEN's. They're not fast, nor high fliers, but, they are a neat/fun little bird to fly .... and have been simulated very well by DM and with no issues (now) "that we're aware of" (primarily because we fixed everything that was previously known .... panel-wise .... around 2020/2021) .... but .... I freely acknowledge this doesn't mean some people might not run into issues however such might be generated.


1.

The trim issue is just that but not as pronounced since I adjusted the sensitivity. I still must trim the nose down on the stab a few clicks at gear retraction, which is normal I suppose, and then engaging the autopilot allows selection of a 15 degree initial climb angle using the up/down dial on the AP panel.

The thing is though .... there "shouldn't" be any Trim related issue/s "at all ".... and more-so if the panel integrated CHECKLIST is being relied upon in order to correctly set Elevator Trim prior to TO. My only other comment in relation to this particular detail is .... a 15* (degree) post TO pitch attitude is "way too high". Pitch .... following TO (and with flaps extended) should never exceed about 10* (degrees) .... and the for the ONE-ELEVEN's is probably and desirably less than that.


2.

One question: Is calling out "DON'T SINK" a part of normal 1-11 final approach procedures?

Such a callout should only be generated if one's getting too close to, or are below, the pre-bugged minimum approach to landing airspeed and in danger of stalling .... or are actually stalling. Before commencing any approach to landing one needs mouse click the ASI gauge .... in order to reset the speed bugs for landing V-REF data (calculated in accordance with the simulations weight). Failure to do this might see one approaching to land at an airspeed still bugged in accordance with TO V-REF .... too fast for a normal landing .... and assuming one's approaching to land at an airspeed well below that for TO (below the pre-bugged TO V-REF), then, this might auto-generate this particular callout .... because if the simulation is flying below the pre-bugged V-REF, then, it thinks its approaching a stall speed and may therefore possibly be falsely alerting one to the fact. Always reset the ASI speed bugs and V-REF data prior TO and again prior to landing.


3.

One more question: Why does the ADF indicator on both DM 1-11 and Trident not show direction when tuned to the ILS/DME frequency within the typical 27 miles?

Possibly because the ADF switch on ADF (located at the bottom left of the RMI gauge) hasn't been set to "ADF". Note in my following image the ADF switch remains set at its default VOR setting .... and the ADF indicator is therefore inactive ....



In both the ONE-ELEVEN 510ED and TRIDENT panels these NAV indications are set and work differently ....




In the case of the ONE-ELEVEN 200/300/400/475/and 500 panel. Set correct ADF Radio frequencies. Then set the RMI located ADF switch to its "ADF" (not VOR) setting .... and see what happens. Be aware that ADF and ILS range are both limited though. "In FS" the ILS .... in particular .... can't be detected outside 21 DME from any RWY. Beyond 21 DME .... VOR/LOC needs to be used .... until the ILS is detected .... and which will always be at around 21 DME or slightly less.

I don't recall there being any issues with either ADF, VOR/LOC, or ILS/GS indications among either the ONE-ELEVEN or TRIDENT panels .... and the way everything works is the way it's been programmed to function.

We did edit fixes into these panels, but, none of these edits had any relationship whatsoever to RADIOS or their related NAV indications. As I mentioned the other day .... we've not, yet, applied any FDE editing to the DM BAC ONE-ELEVEN (or COMET) simulations though. Such is "one hell of a lengthy process" (given all the testing and pre-release verification required) .... and one has to be in the mood to do it. Totally impossible at the moment though given day-to-day administration work here and development of other projects behind the scenes


4.

The positioning of the exhaust smoke for the smoke system is incorrect on all of the 1-11s

Because we've not, yet, applied any FDE editing to any of the ONE-ELEVEN (and COMET) simulations. The FDE accompanying these simulations is precisely what we received per DM's last editing and supply. Upon our own editing we'd typically provide separate FS2004 and FSX specific FDE's (CFG's only) .... as we've done for both the TRIDENT and VC10 simulations "from memory" and with SMOKE data correctly adjusted for the FSX CFG. I believe CFG files accompanying the ONE-ELEVEN (and COMET) simulations are FS2004 specific (that's dual FS2004/FSX compatible except for their SMOKE data) .... and which is why their SMOKE EFFECT's will appear misplaced in FSX. These effects are fine in FS2004 though ....



As I recall also .... there is, or should be, a commented out (//) SMOKE section within the ONE-ELEVEN CFG's (or per other accompanying documentation) and which is intended for FSX use. FSX users in this case need to themselves edit/activate this SMOKE related data by using the data provided with the CFG's. We generally "DO NOT EVER" accept recommended edits (in all due respect to those well-intentioned enough to offer them) .... until "we first" verify the data provided, or, develop and offer data based on our own assessment/s of any particular needs.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[pms707]

OK great! Thanks I will put all this information to use!

[pms707]

Okay -- for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to input the correct bug settings for landing. No matter where I place the bugs, the DON'T SINK warning starts about 1000 feet altitude on approach. How do I "tell" the ASI I am landing? Also -- which of the two bugs is supposed to be where? One stays at 180 and the other somewhere around VAT if I don't do anything... I have looked everywhere in documentation and can't find anything on this or how to set the ASI bugs. Had some luck with clicking around the top of the ASI...

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to input the correct bug settings for landing.

Sorry _my fault).... it's the V-REF chart "on the main panel" that needs to be clicked in order to auto-generate TO and landing V-REF. Not clicking on the ASI gauge to auto-generates the said V-REF data.

I had ASI gauge clicking (for V-REF) "stuck in my brain" due to presently compiling the manual for a simulation I'm working on and which requires just that particular ASI action in order to generate V-REF.

Again .... "click on the V-REF chart" .... located on the main panel. Each DMFS simulation panel features one of these .... they can't be missed

As I mentioned earlier .... all V-REF data is auto-calculated based on the actual weight of the simulation and the data presented is "VERY ACCURATE".

No matter where I place the bugs, the DON'T SINK warning starts about 1000 feet altitude on approach. How do I "tell" the ASI I am landing? Also -- which of the two bugs is supposed to be where? One stays at 180 and the other somewhere around VAT if I don't do anything... I have looked everywhere in documentation and can't find anything on this or how to set the ASI bugs.

I don't mean to sound the least bit flippant when I say this ... BUT .... Are you reading the forum based manual which I've referred you to a couple of times already ?

Use of the V-REF chart, and data, is related within "SECTION 2:01" of the following linked manual ....


tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/9973/bac-eleven-manual


.... and within that section it appears precisely quoted below ....

Speed Reference Chinagraph.



The crew had to work out the correct takeoff and landing speeds for their flight and would write them down on a little chinagraph. If you click this little pad it will calculate and display the correct speeds for you. It works out the speeds according to the charts in the flight manual for the aircraft's current weight and flap setting.

V1 - Max speed to abort takeoff (the V1 given is only a guess as it depends on runway length)
VR - Rotate speed (takeoff)
V2 - Safe flying speed
VAT - Landing speed (at the runway threshold with full flap)

Just click on the chart .... and the speed bugs set automatically. One doesn't need to physically move the speed bugs.

BTW .... and just to demonstrate there's nothing wrong with the DMFS ONE-ELEVEN panels I want you to review the following videos made by one of our members and "in FSX" ....


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R-u9yaPr48

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMlDlg7DIPI


These videos were made a little while back but the FDE supporting what's evidenced within each (there's couple of TO and LANDING scenes among these videos) is precisely the same as that we currently offer here .... by virtue of the fact we've not, yet, edited it. In particular you'll note there's no evidence of excessive pitch-up after TO .... nor any nuisance callouts either.

"IF" the nuisance call-outs continue then try adding the following edit to your CFG file ....


[GPWS]
max_warning_height = -1 //disable integral FSX GPWS


Although the DMFS data we provide (for the ONE-ELEVEN's) likely doesn't feature the above edit .... I can't guarantee it'll resolve your issue, but, can guarantee it'll do any harm either.


ONE FINAL QUESTION ....

Have you applied any editing to the FDE suite you're using ? .... AND/OR .... Are you running these simulations with any ADD-ON utilities/modules/programs that you've omitted to mention ?

MRC

[pms707]

Okay got it. I had been clicking on this chart and seeing speeds change for approach but was still getting DONT SINKS even at 140+ knots below 1000 feet on final with a light load so assumed it was something else I didn’t understand. Is the approach speed that high for this little plane ?

So the porpoising is happening above 21000 feet at level off. When engaging the altitude hold, the aircraft “bounces” repeatedly about 100 feet up and down every second and the trim wheel goes back and forth to try to stabilize it. It’s not happening with AP disengaged and it stops when the aircraft reaches 21000 on descent. It happens also throughout a descent once it is initiated from the altitude where it starts happening. Thoughts?

Honestly I’ve never had this many issues with a model since I started this hobby — it surprises me a little. The DM Trident was seamless compared to learning to fly this.

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

1.

Is the approach speed that high for this little plane ?

"NO" ....

If you relate to each of my above 2 BAC ONE-ELEVEN panel images (raw screen captures during pre-release testing), and in particular eyeball the V-REF charts in both, you'll see that for the 200/300/400/475/500 panel the auto-computed VAT airspeed is 118 KTS .... and for the ONE-ELEVEN 510ED panel it's 122 KTS. Hardly high approach to landing airspeeds. What's evident there are V-REF auto-computations based on the weight I was flying/landing at .... and with FULL FLAPS extended and the GEAR DOWN in both cases too.

VAT is airspeed over the RWY threshold prior to landing. If you note the ASI indications in each of my above images too you'll see I'm several KTS above the computed VAT, but also, pretty much on-target for it too .... given the distance remaining to be flown prior to landing.

This evidence is all in regard to landing with a full payload BTW and with just 20% fuel remaining in each tank .... as I've been earlier advocating.

If you're flying the approach a lot faster and at around the same distance as me .... then you going/BALLS-TO-THE-WALL/"too fast".

If your getting higher landing V-REF computations than mine .... THEN .... you must be landing way overweight.


2.

Thoughts?

Sorry Alex .... but I simply "CANNOT" replicate any of the issues you're reporting.

Beyond the advice I've provided to date I've nothing further to be able to offer or suggest ..... I regret to add

We can't try'n fix what aint broken

MRC