Powering up the 737-200

[tokolosh]

Thank you for the latest update with the 737-200 series. I have been looking forward to that!
So far I have downloaded the Aer Lingus and T-43-A models with accompanying base and sound packs, and installed them exactly according to the instructions. I have a problem powering up the instrumentation. With both models the DC & AC meter electrical system switches engage correctly, but in the Aer Lingus plane the GEN1 & GEN2 Contator Switches either refuse to switch on at all or only one of them does, so the flaps will not set and I can't fly. With the T-43-A they all engage correctly but I still get no flap settings. So I tried the PS Panel which I use with the original Cantu 737-200 and it flies normally with the HJG versions, except that it won't capture the glide slope on an ILS approach. The same is true for the same panel you use with the 300/400/500 series (though not with the HJG edits). Have I missed a step or steps somewhere along the line? I've read and re-read everything to try and find the problem. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

On another note, the original Cantu model had wing views. Have you removed these, or can they be activated somehow?

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

You don't actually mention which version of TM2 (assuming you're using it as recommended) B737-200 panel you're using

You should be using "V1.25" release and with it's "V1.26" update .... and nothing else "at this time".

PLEASE NOTE: The V1.26 update is "absolutely essential" for the V1.25 panel.

PLEASE NOTE ALSO:

The above 2 files are FS2004 compatible only/

We know the TM2 B737-200 panel is also available per a later (than we recommend) V1.30 release and with V1.31 (and possibly V1.32 also) updates .... BUT .... these later releases (albeit they're apparently dual FS2004 and FSX compatible) "HAVE NOT YET" been analyzed with the B737-200 simulations we offer. This's something "only we can do" in order to properly assess functionality since both panel and FDE engineering are, to some extent, inter-related. This's also why a number our simulations may not function "as we intend" if used with non-HJG supplied/recommended panels.

The HJG offered B737-300/400/500 panel should not be used with these B737-200 simulations.

If one uses any other panel version .... other than what we currently recommend .... then we regretfully we can't assist through lack of familiarity with such other productions

I have a problem powering up the instrumentation. With both models the DC & AC meter electrical system switches engage correctly, but in the Aer Lingus plane the GEN1 & GEN2 Contator Switches either refuse to switch on at all or only one of them does, so the flaps will not set and I can't fly. With the T-43-A they all engage correctly but I still get no flap settings.

I can assure everyone if the electrical/generator system is "correctly configured" then no such imposition/s should ever occur. In fact "it can't not work" because these systems (including APU functionality too) are configured exactly the same way for each of the 12 B737-200 base packs we offer.

I don't doubt you may believe this system is configured correctly, but, there must be a simple system related switch/button that's not being correctly engaged. I'll try'n explain as follows ....

"As stated within the manual" .... the recommended panel loads into FS with engines running but most panel instrumentation flagged/unpowered and by default .... this's perfectly normal.

There are 4 switches (only) that "must" be engaged in order to power all instrumentation and for all systems to function .... each are located on the OH sub panel and need to be "correctly engaged" as follows ....

1. Within the bottom center middle of the OH sub panel there's a line of 4 button switches .... labeled "GEN1", APU GEN" (2 buttons/switches associated with this setting) and "GEN2". Focus on the "GEN1" and "GEN2" button switches only (located at the extreme left and right of this line of button switches). When these items are "OFF" a blue lamp above each is illuminated. Let the panel stabilize in FS for half a minute or so after loading .... then go to the OH sub panel and left mouse click both the "GEN1" and "GEN2" button switches (only) .... the blue lamps associated with each should immediately extinguish.

PLEASE NOTE: The GEN1 and GEN2 switches will not be engage unless the Main Panel MASTER CAUTION lamp is first extinguished.

2. Within the top center middle of the OH sub panel (below the 4 AMP meters) there's a line of 2 rotary switches. The left rotary switch must be set to its "BAT" position .... and the right rotary switch must be set to its "GEN1" or "GEN2" position (either position can be set).

The above #1 and #2 actions (again 4 items only) are "essential" and all that's necessary to ensure all panel instrumentation is powered and all systems function correctly .... including the flaps. If the panel instrumentation remains unpowered and the flaps, and other systems, remain non-functional, then, either one of these 4 items have not been set correctly.

Again .... this information relates to the recommended TM2 V1.25 panel with it's V1.26 update "ONLY". This's "the only panel" we can support at this time (provided it's used with the HJG offered B737-200 simulations) .... and certain aspects of our B732 FDE have been edited for use with it only.

Apply my clarified #1 and #2 procedures as stated above.

There's no way in hell this can't work .... if correctly applied and provided nothing else as been edited

the original Cantu model had wing views. Have you removed these, or can they be activated somehow?

The 2005 3D model we received from CANTU during OCT 2010 .... along with the limited/incomplete source code that accompanied it at the same time .... doesn't seem to have WV's. If the original model has these features, then, I've never able to get these to display either .... because we've taken nothing out of these models. We've only added to them in order to extend the 3D model line .... and which remains CANTU's property (by default) despite our editing.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[tokolosh]

Thank you Mark,
I had implemented to the letter points 1 and 2 you made in your reply. I had also noticed the panel needs a litle time "warm" up. As you say, there must be a very simple solution here, which is why I have tried for quite some time to get it working before posting my question! I think what I'll try now is a re-install of the panel since something perhaps went wrong in the process. I'll do this later om the week and report back whether it's working properly.

Yes, I know you can't support other panels and only limited support for the TM panel, so thanks for your time on this.

As for the wing views, perhaps the air file I consider the "original" is different to the one you have. Mine's called "7372.air". Perhaps it's like with Eric Cantu's 300/400s in which the earlier versions had wing views and the later ones not.

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

The AIR.FILE's are completely different. They're not the originals ... nor are they TM's either.

For God sake .... don't be tempted to switch AIR.FILE's or make any other FDE changes either .... (not suggesting you are, or have, just want to make sure people don't misunderstand or try'n do that as doing such will "COMPLETELY SCREW" performance of these simulations.

We applied a "A LOT" of editing to the original FDE's (the weights, MOI's, and a lot of other data too, was "way out to hell").... because they really needed it and some of the applied editing was essential for the sake of the recommended TM2 panel.

Just occurred to me also: The TM2 project/s come with a selection of other FDE suites for the old CANTU models, but, "DON'T" be tempted to use these with the simulations we offer either. Use nothing but the FDE's provided within the base pack we offer

Install the panel, and its update, precisely as recommended per TM (our own basic panel installation instructions mirror TM's in every detail) and with our base packs/FDE. Upon doing so there's absolutely no reason why everything shouldn't be fine.

Be aware also of the 4 "very minor" TM2 panel related issues that do exist .... as mentioned (by me) within the "KNOWN ISSUES" section near the end of PP1 of my forum based manual. Once these "very minor issues" are understood, and worked around as we advise, then, the recommended panel performs b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l-l-y with these simulations. At the moment the only limitation associated with the recommended panel is its "FS2004 ONLY" compatibility status.

Still need to know though .... Are you using the recommended V1.25 TM2 panel with it's essential V1.26 update .... and in FS2004 of course ?

As I mentioned per my first reply .... when clicking both "GEN1" and "GEN2" buttons/switches within the lower OH sub panel their blue lamps should immediately extinguish. If these lamps don't extinguish then these GEN switches aren't engaged and the panel instrumentation and systems won't be powered or work. ALSO .... when clicking these same GEN1/GEN2 buttons/switches do so "a little more toward the lower rim of each" , rather than directly over them, otherwise you may be missing their "hot-point" (again ensure the Main Panel MASTER CAUTION lamp is "OFF" though otherwise the 2 GEN switches won't engage). I suspect this may (possibly) be the cause of your issue.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[tokolosh]

Hi Mark, I don't intend to combine old models with new fde's, etc, so don't worry I was indeed using the recommended panel and update. When I have time I'll reinstall and try again, and will let you know in due course what happens.

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Sent you a PM "TOKE's"

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[tokolosh]

Dankje Mark
I'm abroad for a while, so well respond when back. Groeten, Albert

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

I (maybe) should have posed this question at the start.

"IF" .... you get a chance to get back to me sooner "TOKE's" .... then please advise which WINDOWS OS is your FS9 installed within ?

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[tokolosh]

Hi Mark, I'm back and have re-read everything and followed all instructions to the letter. I've also done a complete reinstallation of the aircraft, sound and panel, absolutely no fiddling with configs and FDEs. To answer your last question, I'm using Windows 7. Just for clarification, I used only the HJG provided installation instructions, not those of TM. There is no change in the situation: the flaps will not extend. They try in first instance to go to the first position for about a second with the accompanying sound, but then return to zero. This is baffling and I can't help thinking there must be something very simple but essential that I'm missing. I tried a start from cold and dark too (as described in section 3.0 of the handling notes), but then the GEN 1 & 2 switches don't work at all!

It doesn't seem as if anybody else is encountering this issue.

Thanks, Albert

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Thanks Albert .... for getting back to us.

The recommended V1.25/V1.26 panel files are fine in FS9 and within the "WINDOWS 7" environment .... and the same applies within WINDOWS XP too .... and also in regard to WINDOWS 10 apparently as well (or so I'm told).

I was initially concerned you may be using FS9 within WINDOWS 11 and which "would" then result in problems given the recommended panel files "will not" function properly with FS9 and within this particular OS (WIN 11).

Just to reiterate our current support policy in regard to the TM B732 panel: We can only support the recommended TM V1.25/V1.26 files (FS9 compatible only). We cannot, at this time, support TM V1.30/V1.31/V1.32 B732 panel (it's a little different from the version we recommend). We do not/cannot support any other B732 panel versions. These comments are intended for "general awareness" only and "are not" directed toward the OP of this thread

the flaps will not extend. They try in first instance to go to the first position for about a second with the accompanying sound, but then return to zero.

The only condition that would cause this is if the GEN1, GEN2, HYD SYSA, and HYD SYSB switches are not engaging .... as flaps within the recommended panel require both electrical and hydraulic systems being engaged (correctly).

Try clicking "below" these button/switches .... MEANING .... click right on their "GEN1" and "GEN2" ID placards and not directly on their respective buttons/switches.

When the GEN1 and GEN2 buttons/switches engage both of their associated yellow and blue Bus Lamps will extinguish .... and both of their associated Amp Meters will also then display readings as per the following 2 images.

GEN1/GEN2 "not" engaged (Bus Lamps illuminated)


GEN1/GEN2 "engaged" (Bus Lamps extinguished


If the the GEN1 and GEN2 switches aren't engaged then most panel instrumentation will be unpowered and/or appear red-flagged and various other systems won't work either.

AGAIN PLEASE NOTE: tHe GEN1 and GEN2 switches cannot be engaged unless the Main Panel MASTER CAUTION lamp is extinguished .... select the MASTER CAUTION lamp "OFF" first.


So my question/s are ....


1. Are you seeing the following condition (note the red-flag indications within the main panel Altimeter, HSI, RA, and engine EPR gauges per the following image .... and which is precisely what will/should be observed (by default) if GEN1 and GEN2 "are not" engaged) ? ....



.... or ....


2. Are you seeing the following condition (note there are no red-flag indications within the main panel Altimeter, HSI, RA, and engine EPR gauges in the following image .... and which is precisely what will/should be observed if GEN1 and GEN2 "are" engaged) ? ....



"IF" you're main panel instrumentation isn't appearing as per image #2 .... then your issue's (almost solely) likely to be "GEN1" and "GEN2" related.

These next 2 items also need to be attended to immediately after the GEN1 and GEN2 switch/buttons have been engaged ....

Check the DC and AC Meter rotary switches are correctly set (both are located within the top middle left of the OH sub panel). The DC Meter rotary switch should be set to "BAT" position .... and the AC Meter rotary switch should be set to either "GEN1" or "GEN2" positions (either detent is acceptable for this particular item).

Also check the following too ....

Check both HYD SYS A and HYD SYS B switches are "ON" (located middle left of the OH sub panel) .... and haven't defaulted "OFF" for any reason (they should be "ON" by default) .... and also check the GROUND INTERCONNECT switch (located within the same OH sub panel section) is set to "CLOSED".

All this being correctly attended to there's no logical reason why the FLAP system (and everything else too) shouldn't work .... unless the electrical system inadvertently remains configured to run from the APU after its been shutdown .... or unless something within your FS installation is preventing (an extremely rare scenario) functionality.

Further advice too. "DO NOT" load the default CESSNA (or any other default MSFS aircraft type) in advance of loading your B732 panel/simulation .... it's not necessary. Loading a default FS aircraft/panel in advance of selecting any B732 (using this panel) seems to "stuff-up" certain aspects of the B732 panel configuration. In the case of the HJG supplied B732 simulations (using the recommended TM panel) .... "GO STRAIGHT TO YOUR SELECTED B732 SIMULATION UPON FIRING UP FS".

This is baffling and I can't help thinking there must be something very simple but essential that I'm missing ....

.... It doesn't seem as if anybody else is encountering this issue

I absolutely agree. It's irritating .... and more-so from our perspective because there's nothing we'd like to achieve more than resolve your/anyone's issue. I've been using the recommended panel files since 2016/17 (with no modifications at all) .... slowly learning how to configure everything .... and haven't run into the issue you're reporting although it took me some days to figure out how everything worked from the beginning. Sometimes though unique issues can arise and are specific to different systems and their settings (even screen resolution in some cases .... I recall such a rare limitation applies to our DC-9 panels in FS9) and which can become "a devil to try'n troubleshoot".

Can you try again on the basis of my above advice .... and report back ?

"IF" all of the panel instrumentation "IS" functioning though (but not the flaps), then, I do have one last Flap related suggestion to offer, but, let's take "one step at a time" please .... to try'n address everything per the recommended procedure/s.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[tokolosh]

Hi Mark, Nothing's changed, except on some occasions the master caution light is on. I've compared the screenshots of the "powered on" situation with my own cockpit and they are identical. When you mention the HYD SYS A and HYD SYS B and GROUND INTERCONNECT, are you still referring to Gen1 and Gen2? But, as I say, everything seems to be identical. I have noticed though, that the Gen1 and Gen2 lights are sometimes reluctant to douse when you click (or only one will, or they both won't).

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

That's disappointing news .... and more-so because (at the moment) I simply can't replicate what you're reporting

master caution light is on ....

Mouse clicking on the MASTER CAUTION lamp will normally extinguish it .... BUT .... "IF" the GEN1/GEN2/AC/and DC systems aren't connected (or are incorrectly configured), or if another imperative sub system isn't correctly configured either, then, the MC lamp will not extinguish "until the offending item is satisfactorily addressed".

the Gen1 and Gen2 lights are sometimes reluctant to douse when you click (or only one will, or they both won't).

The only reason for the GEN1/GEN2 lamps to "not extinguish" (when attempting to select both systems "ON") is if these particular systems haven't been engaged in the first instance .... or if you're missing the "hot/click-point" located below, and not directly on, their respective buttons (best to always click on the "GEN1" and "GEN2" placards below these buttons and which is precisely what I've learned to do and with no issues resulting) .... or if the Main Panel MASTER CAUTION lamp is illuminated (if it is illuminated the select it "OFF" first .... then engage GEN1 and GEN2).


Both GEN1/GEN2 systems must be selected "ON" .... and both AC/DC items must be correctly configured too. The problem we confront here is if these systems aren't engaged/configured correctly, then, there's no way in hell the flaps, and possibly other panel sub systems too, are going to be able to function.

On an "aside". I've reviewed my forum based manual, in regard to the flaps, and have discovered "a minor typo", but, it's not of a magnitude that should cause misunderstandings/issues .... though I'll correct/edit this later today when I've time to do so.

HYD SYS A and HYD SYS B and GROUND INTERCONNECT, are you still referring to Gen1 and Gen2?

No .... HYD SYS-A and HYD SYS-B are 2 systems totally separate from the GEN1/GEN2/AC/DC systems (as I mentioned yesterday these items are located within the center right of the OH sub panel .... well away from the other items of discussion). Both HYD systems should be "ON" by default (they are in the case of my V1.25/V1.26 panel, but, can also be manually selected "OFF" too). I don't know if "not" activating these 2 HYD systems affects the flaps (as is the case with HJG's own panels .... all switches/buttons featured in the recommended TM II panel influence something. Nothing's there to be clicked for the shear hell of it. Everything represented does has a function of some description), but, it seems logical (to me) that both HYD systems also need to be "ON" for the flaps, and landing gear too, to be able to function.


Need a bit of information from you ....


Open your TIN MOUSE II B732 panel.

I want you to confirm you have all of the panel gauges installed "inside this panel folder" and nowhere else .... with the exception of the FSSOUND.DLL file which must be installed inside the FS9 "MODULES" folder and nowhere else.

I then want you to identify and right click on the "B732ADV.GAU" inside your panel folder .... then select "PROPERTIES" .... and then quote me (precisely) the "LAST MODIFIED DATE AND TIME" for this particular gauge inside your panel folder.


I also want to know the following too ....


Where did you get your TM B732 panels files from ?

Did you use the posted AVSIM links we've posted .... or .... Did you get your file from elsewhere .... or .... Have you had the TM B732 panel for a while/prior to release of the HJG offered B732 project ?

These are all important details necessary to try'n aid understanding precisely what you've installed.


ALSO ....


Have you installed the TM B732 panel file I provided for you ?

The file I provided for you last week (completely assembled .... no modifications necessary) is the panel I use and it "IS" working fine for me .... other than the few minor and "KNOWN ISSUES" advisories communicated within "SECTION 1.17" of the forum based B737-200 Manual.


Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

I've just completed a number of tests using the HJG recommended TIN MOUSE II panel. These tests were performed in relation to the GEN1, GEN2, AC, DC, HYD SYS-A, and HYD SYS-B systems on the OH sub panel .... and only in regard to flap/slat functionality. As advised earlier within this thread .... each of the above mentioned 6 systems must be selected "ON"/engaged and/or be correctly configured or failures "WILL" result. These are my observations ....


1. If keyboard command F8 (flap extension) is selected the flaps/slats will momentarily extend to their FLAP 1* detent .... then immediately retract again to their FLAP 0* detent.

2. If keyboard command F7 (flap extension per increments) is selected the flaps/slats will extend .... per increments of selection .... to their FLAP 40*/FULL FLAPS detent.

3. If keyboard command F5 (flap retraction) is selected the flaps/slats will momentarily retract to their FLAP 30* detent .... then immediately extend again to their FLAP 40* detent.

4. If keyboard command F6 (flap retraction per increments) is selected the flaps/slats will retract .... per increments of selection .... to their FLAP 0*/FLAPS FULLY retracted detent.


The above is how the flaps/slats are "intentionally" engineered to function in this panel.

Albert .... it seems that "beyond any difficulty you're experiencing in regard to engaging the GEN1, GEN2, AC, and DC systems" (all of which must be engaged correctly), you must have been using keyboard command F8 to extend the flaps .... because this's the only way I can replicate what you've reported in regard to, your flaps/slats, extending momentarily only and then immediately retracting again. "DO NOT" use F8 to extend/set the flaps/slats. Always use F7 to extend/set the flaps/slats and per continuously repeated increments/depresses of this keyboard command.

My other observations of today (no surprises among these though because this's all be known to me since 2017) are as follows and each of which are in-line with how the HJG recommended TIN MOUSE II panel is intended to function ....


If the GEN1, GEN2, AC, and DC systems aren't engaged .... then upon selecting keyboard command F7 the flaps/slats simply "will not move/animate" .... though for reasons of FS internal functions a brief flap sound may be heard.

In regard to HYD PUMPS SYS-A. If GEN1, GEN2, AC, and DC systems are correctly engaged .... but the 2 HYD PUMPS SYS-A switches aren't engaged .... then upon selecting keyboard command F7 the flaps/slats simply "will not move/animate" either .... though for reasons of FS internal functions a brief flap sound may again also be heard.

In regard to HYD PUMPS SYS-B. If GEN1, GEN2, AC, and DC systems are correctly engaged .... but the 2 HYD PUMPS SYS-A switches aren't engaged .... then upon selecting keyboard command F7 the flaps/slats "did" move/animate" and with their associated audio.


Be my recommended configuration of this panel right, or wrong, there appears to be no harm in having both HYD PUMPS SYS-A and -B switches engaged at the same time. In fact that's what I've been doing (at least) since 2017 .... and without any problems at all.


Albert I need you to follow my advice "to the letter", but, I also need you to respond to each of the questions I've posed within my earlier reply of today .... your answers to these are "essential".

Again I (personally) can't replicate any "problems" (as such) using the HJG recommended TIN MOUSE II B737-200 panel .... apart from the few minor issues already advised within "KNOWN ISSUES" section ("SECTION 1.17") within the forum based manual.

In regard to this manual I've also now corrected my earlier "typo" in regard to flap functionality (though this "typo" should not have had any misleading impact on anyone) to read as follows ....

PLEASE NOTE: Using the HJG recommended TIN MOUSE II B737-200 panel the selection of flaps/slats is (intentionally) engineered to work differently from most other FS panels. Selecting keyboard commands F8 or F5 "WILL NOT" fully deploy or fully retract the wing flaps/slats respectively. The F7 keyboard command must be used to extend the flaps "per individual increments" .... one increment at a time. 8 individual depressions of the F7 keyboard command are required to continuously extend the wing flaps/slats to from their FLAP 0"/FULLY RETRACTED to FLAP 40*/FULLY EXTENDED detent. The F6 keyboard command must be used to retract the flaps "per individual increments" .... one increment at a time. 8 individual depressions of the F6 keyboard command are required to continuously retract the wing flaps/slats to from their FLAP 40*/FULLEXTENDED to 0*/FULLY RETRACTED detent. Below the increment of FLAP 1* extension .... selecting keyboard command F8 will extend the flaps/slats to their FLAP 30* increment only .... F7 must then be selected to extend the flaps/slats from their FLAP 30* to FLAP 40"/FULL FLAPS* increment. Above the increment of FLAP 30* retraction .... selecting keyboard command F5 will retract the flaps/slats to their FLAP 1* increment only .... F6 must then be selected to retract the flaps/slats from their FLAP 1* to FLAP 0*/FULLY RETRACTED* increment. This is how the flaps/slats are (intentionally) engineered to work using the HJG recommended TIN MOUSE II B737-200 panel.

I don't rule out the possibility of further edits/corrections being applied to this B737-200 manual .... over time. These sorts of edits are quite normal and should be expected. As I've often in the past stated .... "the manuals for all of our simulations should be interpreted as constant WIP's". We do edit them in order to clarify details, recommended improved procedures, or to introduce extensions and updates to projects .... as we feel such are appropriate to be added

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[tokolosh]

Hello again Mark,

Thank you for your time and effort on this issue

To my relief (and I'm sure to your great relief too!) the "problem" is SOLVED, The solution is to be found in the "please note" of your last reply, and also to be found in your Installation and Handling notes which are always very clearly and comprehensively compiled. It had not ocurred to me that the flap commands would not work using my joystick button. It's as simple as that! Perhaps it is unique to my computer and its configuration, but this is the only panel I use where the joystick flap commands have to be entered via keyboard only.

What a relief. I'm off to fly now. Thank you for these new additions to the HJG collection. Greetings, Albert.

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Wat een opluchting ! / What a relief !

Dat is "een grote opluchting" Albert! / That's a big relief Albert !

Just goes to show ... that what we offer and/or recommend does actually work

I'm very dubious about joystick applied assignments. Especially when it comes to the like of flaps .... and trim control in particular. From my personal experience (over some 23 years here analyzing peoples reports and feed back) I tend to feel JS assigned responses can (sometimes) be "overly sensitive". Best to use keyboard commands .... IMHO. Be sure to "completely familiarize yourself with that manual and its associated tutorials". Particularly in regard to the "KNOWN ISSUES" advisories and recommended work-arounds (SECTION 1.17 of the manual). As is the case with each of our own panels .... there's quite a lot of information to take in with regard to the HJG recommended TM II B732 panel and it will take the average person several days to do so, but, once sufficiently rehearsed, understood, and then practiced repeatedly .... that knowledge and experience does all make for "an enjoyable B732 experience". More than 90% of issues that could possibly arise with the (any) simulation we offer, or recommend, are covered within our manuals .... as I try to compile these with a view to aiding people avoiding issues and/or dealing with them satisfactorily should such arise.

Bedankt Albert... ons plezier! / Thanks Albert .... our pleasure !


Mark C
AKL/NZ