Boeing 707 panels

[normanholman]

Hi Tony,

Firstly nice to join up with you after a few years when you were at Jersey.

I have had Georges 2002 panel for 4 years and it will only run properly with FSUIPC and I still use it.

Your 320 panel works fine, but the 120 panel makes the plane porpoise up and down 200 ft and the problem is in the Panel, not the plane as I have changed them around.

Nice planes and panels and nice to keep this era alive. When do we see the Pioneer of passenger Jet Flight, "DH106 Comet"

[speedbird591]

Hello, Norman
If it's a Comet you want, then you need look no further than Dave Maltby's site. www.dmflightsim.co.uk/dh106_comet.htm

Dave makes exquisite British classic jetliners for FS2004. They are supported on the forum at www.cbfsim.org

Regards, Ian

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Your 320 panel works fine, but the 120 panel makes the plane porpoise up and down 200 ft and the problem is in the Panel, not the plane as I have changed them around.

I've seen a couple postings concerning this .... but for the life of me .... I'm just not experiencing this.

This might sound like silly questions .... though it's not intended to be.

1. You have got the B707-120 panel mated with our (HJG) B707-120 aircraft havent you ?

2. And .... you are using the FDE data provided within the new aircraft Base Packs aren't you ?

It's just that I'm getting perfectly smooth flight throughout all altitudes and in both manual and AP controlled flight

When do we see the Pioneer of passenger Jet Flight, "DH106 Comet"

The ones I'd like to see is "COMET 1" .... and a decent "TU104" as well





Unfortunately these models (above) are really starting to show their age now

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[christrott]

Doubt you'll see a Comet 1 out of David, but I heard someone else was working on one.

I thought there was someone doing a side project that was being hosted by Project Tupolev that was working on a Tu-104?

[jimhalinda]

I recently found a TU-104 at tu104.avsim.ru/e_news.html .

The model and panel look great, and it doesn't require flipping too many switches to get it up and running. (I'd love to fly the Project Tupolev TU-154, but the sheer number of switches to press scares me off). It doesn't come with a sound file, though.

It seems OK to fly, although I've seen a couple of issues:

1. It seems to need more speed than the manual indicated before rotation will get you off the ground.

2. The dual ADF needles seem to wander around. There is a step in the instructions for synchronizing the two gyro-compasses, which I haven't tried yet. I don't know if that's what is affecting the ADF needles.

Has anyone here tried this one? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone as to whether the ADFs can be used correctly.

Regards,

Jim

[chriscoulter]

Hi Jim,

I used to put some time in with the "Camel" when I was going through my Tu-104 "phase" a few years back.

I think I talked with Harerton about getting this beast to work properly - though that was back on the old board a long time ago. It is a wierd plane, I seem to (or want to) rememeber that it operated best in fs2002.

I think I remember that the Tu-104A needed somewhere around 30! taps of trim to rotate correctly, but flew quite normaly for so much initial "up" trim. It seemed wierd at the time...

Yes, the adfs do not work in fs2004. The plane was originally released for FS2002 and I'm pretty sure they worked then (memory is fuzzy).

Also, the two gyro-compasses operate on the same basis as the default FS2004 DC-3 Sperry autopilot. Line em' up before you use heading hold. They don't have anything to do with the wandering needles as far as I could ever tell.

If you want a challenge, try making it with the "A" model to Heathrow from Moscow Sheremetyevo. (I think that airport was used for international flights during those years) on a full tank. It get's difficult to simulate the aircraft's historic first state visit! I learned you had to get to cruise altitude fast. Also, cruise mach is critical. The real Tu-104 was not a fast cruiser as compared to a 707 (similar to the original comet1 I'd guess), so I could only make the trip with a bit of fuel to spare with the following parameters (the cruise mach should have been a bit faster, but she'd keep running out of fuel.

Tu-104A
UUEE – EGGL:
FL340, Throttle=90%, FF=2.65, KIAS=248, M=.71

Of course, heading back east was a breeze...

I have a panel that I labeled in English that you can download here if you want to use it to get familiar with things: www.pier3.org/misc/tu-104_panel_english.zip

Chris

[jimhalinda]

Thanks for the reply about the TU-104.

I guess I could replace the ADF gauges with some from another aircraft so that I can navigate.

Also, there is a navigator's panel that is not explained at all in the accompanying documentation. There are some 'extra' gauges on there whose function is a mystery to me.

I'll check out your English panel and see if I can figure anything else out.

Regards,

Jim

[petrbilt]

I agree. The -300 panels have no bobbing but the -100 panels have a +- 200 ft porpoise and this is with the proper new FDEs and aircraft configurations.

Nick

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

I agree. The -300 panels have no bobbing but the -100 panels have a +- 200 ft porpoise and this is with the proper new FDEs and aircraft configurations

VERY STRANGE .... because using the same data I'm just not experiencing any of this or other issues raised either

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[wolfgang]

Hi
Yes i have this problem also
On the B707-120 that I flew
the last two weeks.
The other Types i have not flown by this time.

I think the problem is the trimming
I´m not able to proceed a constant rate of climb
only with trimming and no Autopilot.
In my opinion the trimming is not fine enough.
In Autopilot mode the trim goes constantly
one notch up and then one notch down
If I try to use time acceleration, the aircraft
bounces up and down sometimes + - 600 feet
in sine waves.

First I thought it was the Autopilot itself
and then I tried to use an other autopilot
with the panel.
Then some strange things cummed up

1. Heading select only in 10th Degrees possible
2. Altitude select only in 1000th feet possible

The same problem I had some time ago with
David Maltby´s old Trident that has FS 2000 Gauges

long time ago, some guy wrote on an forumthread
that this problem can be solved only with an registered
version of FSUIPC´.
Haven´t tried it for myself doe to the lack of an
registered version.

Hope that this can clear something

Greetings Wolfgang

[normanholman]

Greetings All,

Re-707-120 ‘Porpoising’ at cruising altitude at rate of X4 and above, can advise the following:

On July-8-2006, I downloaded PANAM N707PA and the base pack file HJG_Boeing_707-120_v5 (dated 5-June-2006) and I note only the aircraft.cfg file is dated 6/26/2006. the air file is dated 5/23/2006 and the problem of ‘Porpoising’ up and down 200-300ft is still there.

I have FSNavigator and when flying the 707-120 with FSNAV, the Altitude switch will click on and off continuously and the aircraft will still “Porpoise’ when levelling off at cruise altitude.

I also have Pete Dowson’s FSUIPC which is necessary to fly these panels, else the autopilot will not go above 700 – 800 ft on the vsi after the alt-hold has been used for the first time. As mentioned, I still fly Georges original 2002 707 panel and learned to live with the SHIFT + Number’s to switch panels.

I have tested the AA and PANAM 707-120’s with Microsoft’s default 747-400 Panel, Paul Goldings 707 panel and George Carty’s 707-320 Panel and the 707-120 flies perfectly with all three panels (Had to up the thrust to 13000 to get airborne due no water injection).

Georges Panels are magnificent and apart from the 120 panel problem, are a pleasure to fly and I hope you can sort out the bug that causes the ‘Porpoising”.

With regard to the –900fpm vsi syndrome, this sometimes happens, but as mentioned by others, moving the autopilot switch to ‘Auto” , then back to heading and switching the autopilot on & off a few times seems to cure this.

The early 707’s were a handful of snakes to fly and the P&W JT3’s had a 12 second delay in spooling up from idle to max and caught many a pilot who had just moved over from the big propeller driven aircraft in those days. Can you not change the aircraft file to simulate this delay?

My Computer is a Pen 4 with 512 mb/Ram, ATI 9550 card with 256mb/ram and it runs at 30 to 40 fps with 70% Clouds, over London it can drop to 11-12 fps.

Anyone who has a 707-120 that does not have this problem, please let me know the model, etc.

Happy Flying!!!

Norm

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Anyone who has a 707-120 that does not have this problem, please let me know the model, etc.

I have all the B707-100 series installed .... as I have also of the 300/400 & B720 series as well.

I don't want to start sounding like a stuck record, but, I'm "NOT" now experiencing any of the issues so far reported .... in fact I've been been flying both B707-120B/F & B720-020B only this afternoon preparing preview imagery for some of the new panel versions just uploaded .... and using the latest gauge sets and FDE data this time too.

During these sessios the aircraft was taken right up to FL330. By far the majority of todays flights were operated per AP controlled climb, cruise, and descent, and like my experiences with the previous gauge sets and FDE data .... again not the slightest problem was encountered

On July 14th new gauge sets were uploaded, as also were new Base Packs containing some data revisions .... see "NEW & ANNOUNCEMENTS - "WEBSITE UPDATE JULY 14TH 2006" page, and see also "B707 PANEL INSTALLATION - IMPORTANT NOTES".

Have you tried this new data yet ?

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Hey Norm .... firstly thanks for taking the time to share your observations with us, but honestly my friend, it's not necessary to post precisely the same response on the end of another topic as per earlier today .... OK

However .... I'll respond as follows for the benefit of yourself and whoever else these notes may asssist.

I honestly can't explain why some folk are experiencing AP problems with our B707 panels. Personally I'm not now experiencing anything like what's been described to date .... though I did initially have some vaguely similar experiences.

Last night I flew B707-120 for over 2 hours and at high alititude in AP controlled flight .... periodically using HDG HLD, VOR LOC, and MAN .... as necessary throughout my point to point flight. "NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM" was encontered.

This afternoon for over 1 and a half hours I performed a public demonstration of our B707 panel/s .... again using B707-120 .... and again in high altitude AP controlled point to point flight. Once again, from startup to shutdown "NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM" was encountered.

In all due respect, I'm beginning to feel their may be need for some folk to scrutinize and revise their own handling/operating techniques .... again I stress "in all due respect to other peoples abilities".

With these B707 panels, the AP in particular, I've learned there's a need to be "extremly precise" when using the Mode Selector knob between HDG, MAN, VOR LOC, & AUTO.

From my personal experience, care must be taken to place the mouse curser exactly "on the center" of each different name/title associated with the AP Mode Selector knob options when selecting the desired performance. Near enough simply isn't good enough. Failure to select precisely can cause the wrong mode to be selected and which can (for whatever reason)induce uncommanded descent rates. If that should inadvertantly occur I previously found by immediately selecting the Mode Selector knob to AUTO, and without disconnecting the AP, I could easily trim myself out of trouble by mousing the trim wheel to re-establish the particular climb/descent rate I wanted, then resetting ALT HLD to regain level flight .... and there were no further problems and in fact I've not suffered the same problem since that 1 occasion I experienced it. Taking more care with Mode Selection in the first instance seems to avoid this ("odd" .... I admit) AP behaviour.

I've previously seen/experienced the "porpoiseing" .... very minor though my experience was. On the basis of having used and studied these panels extensively prior their public debut, here's my observations and recommendations.

1. If in AP controlled level flight one flies too low and too fast it will cause the aircraft to very gently porpoise .... "SLOW DOWN A BIT"

2. If one flies too fast even in high altitude cruise and in AP controlled flight it may cause the aircraft to very gently porpoise though almost imperceptably .... "SLOW DOWN A BIT"

3. If in AP controlled flight one activates the ALT HLD switch whilst the aircraft is stiill climbing/descending at more than 500FPM, it will cause the aircraft to porpoise for up to several minutes in ever decreasing increments (it will and does settle itself down) as it captures the selected altitude and levels off .... ensure one's rate of climb/descent is much less than 500FPM (100-200FPM is more desirable) before activating ALT HLD during AP controlled flight.

4. On the basis of my own extensive testing (and obviously confirmed by feedback we are getting) these panels are best compatible with "WINDOWS XP" operating systems. We still don't know what the story is with regard to Windows 2000 compatibility .... there's been little or no feedback at all regarding this one. We can confirm the new B707/720 panels/gauge currently offered on this website definitely aren't compatible with Windows 98.

5. Pete DOWSON's FSUIPC module/utility is an asset to FS generally .... but .... "is not" (and I repeat "IS NOT") vital for the smooth running of these B707/720 panels. I do indeed have FSUIPC installed, but, not the full licensed/registered version.

6. These panels must be flown with either our V5 or V6 B707/720 aircraft models and FDE data contained within each of the Aircraft Base Packs available on this website .... then used with the specific aircraft types they're named for. This I cannot stress more strongly. Failure to do this "will" result in these panels either not performing correctly within FS or instrument readings (particularly engines instruments) which are unrealistic.

7. Don't run these B707/720 panels as part of any previously save flight (they don't seem to like that .... from what I've heard rather than experienced) .... start your flights fresh an clean with each panel and aircraft variation.

I think more than anything here there's a need by some to learn (study the manuals .... p-l-e-a-s-e) and be prepared to revise their own operating/handling techniques when using these panels.

I hope these details might at least benefit some in one way or other

Mark C

[normanholman]

Thanks Mark C,

Will try anything on the 707-120. I have trouble with posting messages threads on the site still finding my way around.

Can you send me details of your aircraft, etc and I will download and try it. I did download the July 14th updates and gauges and the problem is still there and I have Sindows XP.

Thanks for all the replies,

Norm

PS - I fly the 707-120 at night to avoid the "Porpoising"

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Can you send me details of your aircraft, etc and I will download and try it.

UMMM .... I only have the same as everyone else has.

Nothing more and nothing less .... i.e. the models, textures, panels, FDE data, and sounds etc .... as available from this website.

If your operating a "WINDOWS XP" based system then there's really no reason why you shouldn't be getting performance equally as good as mine .... barring any PC "variable" which i hope isn't comming into play here

I really don't know what else I can add here .... other than suggesting you persevere with things in accordance with my 7 point technique list above.

Mark C
AKL/NZ