lift spoilers / speed brake

[carob]

Hello. I was hoping someone would answer a question for me regarding the lift spoilers.

Is it possible to have them automatically deploy on touchdown? I cant' seem to make this happen. I can deploy them manually but that means activitating the speed brake first (I can't seem to find a way to have this automatically deploy either) and then reach for the mouse and find the correct area to click all while trying to land of course.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[braniffops]

carob,

On the approach, you'll find that the tail brakes are usually deployed (either partially or fully) during the approach. this allows the PF to maintain more precise control over the approach speed as the aircraft gets closer to vRef. By doing this, you also activate the lift and roll spoilers. The inboard lift spoilers are supplied by the yellow hydraulic loop, and the outer by the green. Also, per the manual, make sure that the green and yellow lift spoiler switches on the overhead panel have been turned on.

Once the throttles have been retarded, and the aircraft is 'weight on wheels'. the spoilers should automatically deploy.

regards,

Daniel

Edit: I went and tried the approach with the tail brakes deployed, and and lo and behold - no lift spoilers (ugh!). I did notice that the autospoilers switch is inop on the overhead panel, which would explain why the spoilers didn't deploy.

[Mike Monce - HJG]

I need some more info on this as I do some more flight testing on my new FDE: when exactly are the brakes used???

I looked at all the videos on flightlevel350 of 146's landing and about 60% of the time the brakes are used, the other 30% they aren't. Is runway length the real issue here? Anyone have access to a real POH for this?

Thanks.

Mike

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

"MNMON" .... when you reach your final conclusions regarding this revised BAe 146 FDE, can I get you to please send a copy of your rework to Tony MADGE .... for onward distribution to and assessment by both Jon MURCHISON, and Mathias LEIBRECHT ?

Send me a PM when you're complete and ready and I tell you what to do !

Mark C
BOG/CO

[Mike Monce - HJG]

Will do, Mark. I think I'm getting close; can see the runway on approach ;D with about a 1 degree up nose attitude at just above Vref, and the cruise characteristics seem good. Did a crosswind landing yesterday (18 knots at 90 degrees to the runway) that went well. I need to do some speed brake landings to check how it handles in that situation to make sure I haven't overcompensated in some of the corrections.

I'm using the TCDS sheet from the FAA, and a European reference sheet, but am not obessessing on the numbers, just trying to keep them reasonable while looking for "flyability"

Too bad work gets in the way of flight testing!

Mike

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Thanks "MNMON" .... good lad !

Mark C
BOG/CO

[matthiasl]

Hi All,

carob,

The BAe 146 didn't have an automatic function for the Lift- and Rollspoilers (the spoilers which are placed on the wings). I've removed the autospoiler in version 4, because it's more realistic. The autospoilers are inop in almost all real 146 aircraft. Just a few are equipped with a working autospoiler. The more modern ARJ panel keeps this function also in the next panel update.

mike,

The airbrakes (in the aircraft tail) are used with most landings. I also saw some without but this was an exception. Most landings are with extended airbrakes.

The Lift- and Rollspoilers (on the wings) were set after touch down to destroy uplift. This is also a procedure which is normally prepared with every landing because it supports the braking. This should answer the question when the spoilers are used. For setting the Lift- and Rollspoilers the airbrake also must be set (one lever to control both functions).

Best Regards
Matthias

[carob]

I guess the biggest issue is that is has to be controlled from the mouse. It's just not very convienient when you are trying to land and reach for the mouse to click something that's all. The lever I use for the speed brake only controls the speed brake and not the spoilers so I get one but not the other (automatically anyway).

One other question... is this aircraft really this sensitive to input controls? It seems to react VERY quickly. Just curious.

[gus]

Hello,

One other question... is this aircraft really this sensitive to input controls? It seems to react VERY quickly. Just curious.

You have the possibility to customise your settings of sensibility of the joystick in the game.
Personnaly I prefer modify some numbers related in the aircraft.cfg when this is necessary ...

Some infos ......

Sometimes I find I have problems with getting the plane to trim properly. This is usually due to the trim not being precise enough (not enough positions for the trim range). So you can change the number from 1.0 to 0.25 or even 0.2 under [flight_tuning] in the following line (keep in mind if the plane flies well, there may be no need for this edit):

-elevator_trim_effectiveness = 0.7 //1.0


Ok --here is a rough Aircraft.cfg tutorial. It should serve to allow the user to adjust an uncontrollable AC and make it fly and land smoothly. I am not attempting to suggest that any changes are more realistic or that I understand or know how to correct engineering calculations. I simply imply that if your favorite AC in MSFS is not as controllable as you would like it to be then I am listing some of the major effective variables to change.

I have changed every plane in my hanger and all of them fly great.

No longer do I have to contend with snaking down the runway on takeoff or the plane falling out from under me as I turn on to final. I also have cured any tendancy for my planes to pitch uncontrollably when I am on glideslope. They will all hold wings level but still have plenty of roll control.

I have not locked my planes on a rail, just made them responsive to my stick control. My planes are a joy for me to fly and if there had not been this easy way to adjust them I would have shelved MSFS long ago.

Now --lets get down to the major adjustment that can be used to cure most bad flight problems. Fortunately every variable does not need adjusting --just a few --so lets go -----------

---open the Aircraft.cfg file with Notepad or any text program---

(1) The first one you should encounter in any Aircraft.cfg file should normally be the [pitot static]. Set this variable to 10 if it is not already there. This will allow your VSI to more quickly and smoothly line out when you are on autopilot. If your file does not contain this variable then copy and paste it from one that does.

(2) Next to check out is the [weight and balance] section. Since you are going to most likely make changes in the stability values then go ahead and change the empty weight pitch, roll and yaw MOI values. Increase them approximately 25%. You can always come back and increase them more if necessary. I have seen some that needed as much as double the default value.

If you change the pitch, roll or yaw stability values then in some AC you will get severe shaking on the screen during flight at certain high speeds. This shaking can be stopped completely by increasing the MOI values. If you are shaking in the pitch direction then the pitch MOI needs increasing --same for roll and yaw. But to make it simple just go ahead and increase them all to start with.

(3) Next we will look at the [flight tuning] section. To start with I recommend you set the following --

pitch stability = 4.0
roll stability = 2.0
yaw stability = 4.0

These are usually pretty good settings for most AC that are not flying smoothly. After a test flight if you still have problems with pitch, roll or yaw sensitivity you can come back and increase or decrease them. Most of my planes are set pretty close to what I have listed, but I have one at 8.0, 4.0 and 4.0. I have seen some that took a pitch value of 25.

The Cruise lift scalar can sometines need changing also. If you still cannot get your AC to line out smoothly on the VSI --even with the pitot static value at 10--then raise the Cruise Lift Scalar value slightly. The problem will be that your plane does not have enough lift and it is always trying to fall out of the sky so the VSI has trouble lining out --- you will notice this mostly on automatic ILS landings. Most of the time this will not need adjusting, but I have several set at 1.5 or 2.0 and one at 4.0

The parasite and induced drag scalars may also need adjusting. Test fly your plane and take it to top speed. Then cut back sharply to idle throttle and see if your AC looses speed. There is no such thing as perpetual motion. But I have seen some planes --mostly military jets--that come pretty close. The speed should fall at least at a moderate rate to start with and it should continue to fall all the way to the stall. If it does not then increase the parasite drag to 2 or 3. Test the AC again and notice the rate the speed falls --if it is to fast to suit you then cut the number down a little --adjust as necessary. Continue to test fly and adjust until you are satisfied. You will loose some of the planes top speed capability when you increase this number but we will discuss that in another section.

You most likely will not have to adjust the induced drag value.

The next thing is the elevator, aileron and rudder effectiveness values. I seldom have to adjust these. But when I do it is usually the elevator effectiveness value that needs tweaking. I determine that by checking how quickly the nose rotates on takeoff when I pull back on the stick. If the AC jerks up to quickly I lower the elevator effectiveness number and if it is to sluggish and trys to hug the ground I increase it. An increase to 2.0 is usually to much adjustment

This sums up my recommendations in the [flight tuning] section --the most critical of all the sections in the file.

(4) The [fuel]section --this is pretty much self explanatory --add or subtract as you wish. But if your AC uses fuel at an incredable rate you will want to slow down the rate or add more fuel. I usually slow down the rate. The tank loadings are listed as gallons.

(5) The [flaps] section. The only variables in this section that I adjust are the lift scalar and the drag scalar. It is important to me that when I lower my flaps that I immediately start loosing some speed. Flaps will slow your plane down because of the inherent drag that they have. If they do not in the model you are working on then increase the drag scalar value. You may need to raise the value to 1.5 or 2.0 --test fly to see how much it needs. Also the lift scalar may need adjusting. I fully expect to see my planes nose pitch over some when I extend flaps. If that doesn't happen I increase the lift scalar. Again increase it to 1.5 or 2.0 and test fly. The lift scalar may be the only thing standing between you and falling out of the sky when you turn onto final. Some military jets are close to doing that in this sim.

(6) Next is [jet_engine] --the thrust scalar will help you to regain any speed that you have lost when you increase the parasite drag value. It does not take a lot of increase to get your lost top speed back -- from 1.0 to 1.2 or at most 1.5 usually.

But --and this is a big one ---- when you raise your top speed using this variable you will also raise your minimum speed. If your adjustment is to much you will rocket off the runway on takeoff. Speed adjustments are better made in the Airfile. But very few people know how to do that ---I am not one of them. So be carefull how much you increase or decrease this value --only slight amounts. You may have to live with a slight loss in top speed to maintain a good and reasonable overall speed profile.

Sometimes I have to increase the parasite drag so much that I loose all reasonable speed and my speed profile is so out of whack that I cannot possibly get it right. When I encounter an AC like that I junk it.

The [piston engine] power scalar is the same way.

(7) Next is [generalenginedata]. Ths only thing here to check is the fuel_flow_scalar. If your AC uses an inordinate amount of fuel you can adjust it here. I usually add a fuel gauge in all of my AC that tells me the flow rate, unused fuel remaining, amount used, TTE (time to empty) and kts and mph. This gauge is very handy and is called -- CF722RKG_FuelStat!FuelStatusSq_Turbine--

It can be found in Flightsim.com if you don't have it.

( Next is the [autopilot] section. I always set the "autopilot_available=1. If it is set to zero then the AP will not work in your AC. I then set the default_vertical_speed equal to about 1500 feet for most AC. The Cessnas like the 172 I set at 700. I always set the autothrottle_available=1. If it is at zero you will not have an autothrottle in your plane. I set the autothrottle _arming_required=0. I do not like to have to mess around with arming the AT when I am flying --just my preference. if you want it on just set it to 1.

The next thing in the [autopilot] section is the autothrottle_max_rpm. Usually this value is defaulted to 90 --or there abouts. I always change that to 110. What happens is that in most AC if the value is not set to about 110 you will notice that the autothrottle will not work well. Your speed will fall below the setting and not recover. Set this to 110 in all AC.

That pretty much is the changes I make and why I make them. In most AC I go down the line and preset some of these variables before I ever fly the plane. But usually I do that with the pitot static, MOI values and stability values only. I test fly the plane before I fool around with any of the others.

As I said --I have had to discard a few AC because they were so poorly modeled that I could not get a good response from them no matter what I did. But that has not happened a lot. The vast majority will fly well and respond to these adjustments.

However I make it a rule to not download any AC from the various web sites that are not at least 4 mb in size --and the larger they are usually the better.

I have skipped around in this tutorial. Many variables you do not have to change. But I have made note of the ones I think are important to change and important to understand why.

May aircraft.cfg files do not contain all of the variables or sections that are available in others. When I find one like that I copy the missing sections from another one that has them.

And of course remember to save any changes that you make.

Regards.

[carob]

You may have missed the point of the question.

I wasn't trying to say I was having a problem with it. I am not looking to change the dynamics if what was done is correct. I assume that it must be fairly correct with the effort that HJG puts into their products. Different aircraft fly differently. I'm not trying to make them all the same. I am just wondering if the real BAe is this sensitive to the controls.

[gus]

Hello,

On this interesting question ...only a BAe 146 pilot have the answer ..

Regards.

[jonarnz]

Don't count on the dynamics being spot on by any degree, I dont have an FDE person helping develop the model so I think you will find that a refined FDE will come out through the work of others, over time.

carob said:

You may have missed the point of the question.

I wasn't trying to say I was having a problem with it. I am not looking to change the dynamics if what was done is correct. I assume that it must be fairly correct with the effort that HJG puts into their products. Different aircraft fly differently. I'm not trying to make them all the same. I am just wondering if the real BAe is this sensitive to the controls.

[Lluis del Cerro]

Hi,

First of all, my most sincere thanks to the HJG team and to Matthias Lieberecht.

carob said:

You may have missed the point of the question.

I wasn't trying to say I was having a problem with it. I am not looking to change the dynamics if what was done is correct. I assume that it must be fairly correct with the effort that HJG puts into their products. Different aircraft fly differently. I'm not trying to make them all the same. I am just wondering if the real BAe is this sensitive to the controls.

I was going to post the same question here but I see I am not the only one experiencing problems with the extremely high sensitivity of this aricraft to the vertical movements.

I prefer not to touch anything in the original files and I will wait until a revised edition is published for it. I rented and flew several times the real TNT and it was a really sweet aircraft.

I have followed precisely step by step the replacement of the files included in Matthias Lieberecht's panel but the behaviour of the aircraft, according to my real personal experience, needs some revision.

Thank you also for a "white" bmp aircraft. I have spent a lot less hours for the repaint than I spent with the DC-8-50.

Again thanks for your effort and Happy New Year,

Lluís

Lluís del Cerro
Catalonian Airlines

[Tony Madge - HJG]

Hi Lluís
Many thanks for your post, I do know that a revised FDE is being worked on and hopefully will be a good replacement. Not sure how soon it will be but if all goes well with the initial tests it could be out soon!
best wishes Tony

[Mike Monce - HJG]

I'm the person working on a revised FDE. I also found the pitch sensitivity to be "touchy". I've made some modifications that should help. It's also hard to get settings just right in this area as each user has their yokes and pedals set to differenct sensitivities in FS.

This info helps as usually the first thing I change on any plane I get is how it reacts to pitch... just my pet peeve ;D. Now I know others are seeing it as well.

Mike