ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jun 17, 2010 16:18:01 GMT
Hello..maintenance?
I'm still working out the intricacies of the DC9-10 panel and have come across a repeating problem.
I set up as recommended in the handling notes (cold and dark scenario), then begin a preflight. As this panel seems to be largely based on Stellan's original, I tend to follow his procedures for preflight configuring as they seem to closely reflect the real thing. This includes all electricals (generators and bus ties) on (down). Ground power or APU power is then established and all is working fine. Preparations and checks continue while paxs board for the next 10-15 minutes...then there is an electrical failure. The APU or Ground Power is available..all generators are on..bus ties on auto... battery on..the amp/volt gauge selector is set to indicate the correct source... yet it still fails like a typical FS battery failure.
This doesn't seem to occur however if the engines are started soon after getting seated.
Am I missing something?
Cheers
Ross
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jun 17, 2010 21:33:22 GMT
Probably best to use the procedures outlined in our own DC9 PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES .... for the aircraft and panel versions hosted here.
With certain re-engineering which these panels underwent .... some things "may" have changed.
In terms of panel configuration (both before and after startup procedures) and what needs to be selected "ON .... our recommended procedures follow a "convenient order" rather than a logical realworld one.
Typically .... unless the APU BUS switches (both L and R switches) are selected "ON", along with the DC BUS VOLT switch being set to the correct position .... then an electrical fail most likely will occur.
With these panel versions there are 2 scenarios .... (1) default engines running scenario .... and (2) cold and dark scenario using the APU to start the engines.
I realise that there is a GPU/EXT PWR option too, but, I couldn't make it work properly in the case of engine startup precocedures (I berlieve it may also feature a random failure mode during which Mr HILMERBY himself will be heard to say .... "I'm sorry we appear to have a problem with thje ground Power unit today" ) .... and which is why only "Scenario 1" and Scenario 2" are recommended, both of which have been proven to work perfectly fine during 10 months of testing, and so long as the OH panel Electrical system is correctly configured.
In "Scenario 1" (engines running) this is what you must do in respect of the OH panel Electrical System ....
In "Scenario 2" this is what you must do upon successfully starting the APU ....
.... as well as the following steps too ....
2.3: APU SHUTDOWN PROCEDURE
Pay attention to the "ENG" section of the Overhead Panel.
- Select "OFF" the "START PUMP" switch !
Pay attention to the "APU" section of the Overhead Panel.
- Select "OFF" the "APU START" switch !
- Select "OFF" the "APU AIR" switch !
When selected "OFF" the "APU AIR" gauge needle will rotate and stabilize at 290*C degrees. The APU RPM needle will .... intentionally .... not be seen to rotate at all until approximately 50 seconds after the "APU RUN/START" switch has been selected "OFF" ("cool down timer" effect). This is quite normal and is, apparently, a characteristic of the DC9 APU System. Perform no other procedures during this phase of the APU shutdown procedure.
See "SECTION 2" of my DC9 PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES for the complete step-by-step procedures as apply to "Scenario 1" or "Scenario 2". So long as these procedures are followed correctly then no electrical failure should occur at all.
If one was to ever simulate connecting the aircraft to a GPU/External Power .... then I would expect the OH panel Elwectrical System to be configured as follows ....
Once Mr HILMERBY advises .... "External power is connected" and the EXT PWR lamp illumiinates, the EXT PWR BUS switches (both L and R switches) must be selected "ON" .... and the DC BUS switch then set to EXT PWR position.
That should be all that's necessary to ensure a stable energy supply for all of the aircrafts systems to draw upon.
The only way in which I could ever simulate an electrical failure, during testing, is by not performing, or missing any vital step of the above recommended procedures in respect of how these apply to configuring the OH panel Electrical System in all of our DC9 panels/aircraft.
Again .... either "Scenario 1" or "Scenario 2", as appears within "SECTION 2" of our forum manual/DC9 PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES, are our recommended procedures.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jun 18, 2010 0:52:48 GMT
Hello Mark....understood...
I'll pay closer attention to the DC Voltmeter switch position. I assumed it was simply to select which source to monitor on the gauge and not to select which source is actually to be used.
Many thanks again
Ross
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jun 18, 2010 4:28:24 GMT
YEAH .... have a look at our procedures Ross.
Those should see you right !
Some additional notes for you too ....
So far as I'm aware, these panels don't support engine startups using the GPU/EXT PWR source and which therefore requires that the engines be started using the onboard APU .... as per my outlined procedures.
Among tests I performed which involved the OH panel Electrical System was to connect everything up to EXT PWR source .... then let the aircraft sit like that for about 30 minutes (whilst I went away and drank coffee .... or something stronger) to ensure everything was stable .... and also then .... to perform the same test again, as 2 more seperate tests, the first with everything connected and running off the APU, and the second with everything connected and engines already started, and then once again leaving the simulation idle for around 30 minutes or so whilst I drank more coffee .... or something even stronger still.
In all 3 cases .... and so long as everything was correctly connected .... I couldn't simulate any electrical failure at all.
Hope this information is of additional help/comfort.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on Jun 18, 2010 8:00:21 GMT
I think the actual reason why you couldn't simulate an failures, might be the fact you have set it on "pause" and didn't notice because of the " ..or something stronger" you drank .... I think you should stick to coffee  |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jun 18, 2010 9:45:45 GMT
I've been known to put it in my coffee before today too Dan  ;D Mark C AKL/NZ |
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ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jul 12, 2010 1:45:00 GMT
Hello Mark........sorry to drag this up again but perhaps you might indulge my problem once more.. I have tried several startup scenarios, including those you prescribe in the handling notes (ie: from default cessna ) yet I am still suffering an electrical failure while running the APU. Now I know from previous exchanges that you tried to reproduce the fault and found no problem but I raise the issue again only to add some details that might have been missed. It seems that after 4-5 mins of "APU only" power, there are some specific systems which seem to fail while others continue uninterrupted. I noticed this first while configuring the aircraft in the dark... the lights went out. Almost all other systems seemed unaffected..then I noticed the fuel gauges dropped off to read zeros...In my testing I found that the following still seemed to function: hydraulics, APU air ,air conditioning,electrical indicators,overhead test switches,seat belts/ no smoking sign,bowties test and indicator,annunciator test and panel etc etc...until trying the L or R engine start switches...they too were dead. The drop-down menu on the task bar also indicated electrical failure....my point is that at first glance it would seem all is normal. I have made no changes to the CFG file other than during testing to add "electric_always_available=1" which seemed to fix the problem, but that feels like cheating  . I would be grateful if you or any of the other DC-9 experts could take another look. Thanks Ross |
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Post by Mike Monce - HJG on Jul 12, 2010 18:08:59 GMT
I had the same problem during the testing phase. Mark and I determined that it seemed to be unique to my system; but you are obviously having similar issues. It may have something to do with the FSUIPC version I have (unregistered), or something else..  I also have had the problem with other planes. For some reason my setup doesn't seem to recognize properly some APU's or GPU's. Here's my fix: however beware that this fix will cause erroneous readings on your electric current meters. If you can live with that then here's what to do: Go into the cfg file and find the [electrical] section. In that section will be a number of systems with numbers in the line after the entries. The SECOND entry is the current draw for that system in amps. Change all the currents on systems that are on during your pre flight setup to vaules such a 1. For example, you may find the avionics bus looks something like avionics bus 0, 5, 24 where the 0 is the bus type, 5 is current draw, and 24 is the voltage. change to avionics bus 0, 1, 24 MSFS draws down your battery on the basis of power = V*I By changing the current draw on the unit from 5 to 1 we changed the power consumption from 120 watts to 24 watts. I have found that if I change the avionics, nav lights, radios, and other systems that are necessary for preflight I can get through over 20 minutes of such without loss of power. Once the engines are running I seem to have no issues as the generators are now running the show. See of this helps. Mike |
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ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jul 12, 2010 22:57:25 GMT
Hello Mike...
I changed all the "0" bus items to the lower value..seems to have helped. All systems appear to be working normally...but as this is just a "work around " I am still interested in solving the problem in that it may appear elsewhere later. In the meantime I will review my FSUIPC installation and my FS9CFG file for suspects. Let me know if you find the cause....
Thanks for the help.
Ross
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 14, 2010 23:14:18 GMT
Just got back after 3 days away ! Ross .... I can't, for the life of me, replicate your problem/electrical snag .... unless I fail to correctly activate/configure the O/H panel Electrical System in either APU or standard, engines running, modes. Unless this issue is unique to your system/installation .... then there must be a simple step which you're maybe misunderstanding or missing. Mike is "QUITE RIGHT" in what he states .... in that he experienced a similar problem during testing of much earlier developmental gauges/core files and panels around August/September of last year. I, on a completely different PC back then, and on 2 other completely different PC's I've worked with in relation to the current DC9 gauges/core files and panels since then, couldn't replicate this problem back then either. Mike and I therefore assumed that what he was experiencing must be the unique to his PC, or, that something else he had installed at the time (a similarly complex MD80/90 payware product may be  ) could be interfering with his HJG DC9 panels and gauges/core files installation .... and we left things at that ! I've not since become aware of anyone else, with the exception of yourself, that is, or has, experienced this problem. These DC9 panels do require FSUIPC .... any version .... registered/unregistered (it makes no difference) later than V3.50 (I'm currently using V3.82 .... which may already have been superseded), but, this is only essential to working the Weather Radar set and enhancing other FS parameters (per registered FSUIPC versions only) according to taste/preferences .... as well as minor FS fixes .... one of which "is" and "EXTEND BATTERY LIFE" option .... or at least it used to be. About this "EXTEND BATTERY LIFE" option .... It is known that some panels (on some FS installations .... don't ask me why ) will loose electrical power, normally only when the aircrafts engines aren't running and the aircraft remains idle though. The only way to fix this issue .... that I know of .... is by using a registered version of FSUIPC and then activating the above/said option. I can also advise that "IF" Mike's suggested CFG edits have resolved your particular problem then I'd have to regard that as "PROBLEM RESOLVED". Assuming you're still not missing a simple but vital configurational step (in regard to the panel Electrical System) then, for whatever reason may apply, your installation may just be more sensitive/susceptible to this nuance .... which a registered version of FSUIPC will/should resolve Unfortunately .... there's not much else I know that can add/suggest ! Thanks for your input too Mike !  Mark C AKL/NZ |
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ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jul 14, 2010 23:28:20 GMT
Hello Mark thanks for responding....Since I'm using an unregistered version of FSUIPC, I will guess that the EXTEND BATTERY LIFE option is not available..and as Mike's fix of reducing amp values appears to accomplish the same task, I will assume we have solved the problem. Now just to sign off the log book and get outta here! Thanks again Ross |
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ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jul 15, 2010 0:57:21 GMT
Meanwhile... ...some personal mods I have to made to this great panel for my own enhanced use..... a new mini panel:  the main panel:  I didn't think these changes would mess anything up. Happy flying! Ross |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 15, 2010 9:49:09 GMT
AH Ross .... those Main Panel light switches which you've apparently removed from your own Main Panel/s (namely the Anti-Collision and Position Lights) "most certainly do work" in conjunction with the O/H Panel lighting switches and precisely as commented regarding within my Forum Manual/DC9 Panel Installation & Handling Notes. Selecting these switches to their fully "ON" positions from the O/H panel automatically sets them to the "ON" position on the Main Panel/s too .... in fact I've just quickly reconfirmed this tonight and specifically for the benefit of this reply posting It may have done .... OR .... it may not have done .... who knows ! All I can say is .... these panels represent "extremly complex" engineering. Folk, whom are competent to do so, can modify them however they wish to .... of course .... BUT .... only at the risk of potentially disturbing/upsetting something else in the process .... and which may in turn then lessen our ability to be able to assist troubleshooting when issues arise. Mark C AKL/NZ |
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ross
CV-990
Posts: 25
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Post by ross on Jul 15, 2010 18:47:33 GMT
Hi Mark.....
re: "Selecting these switches to their fully "ON" positions from the O/H panel automatically sets them to the "ON" position on the Main Panel/s too"....
That worked for me also...(and the lights would illuminate when using the main panel switches) but the main panel switches could not control the overhead switches IE: when I turn the lights OFF from the main panel, the lights do extinguish but the overhead panel switches remain in the ON position. Probably just my system again but removing the switches removed the conflict.
Thanks again for responding
Ross
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jul 16, 2010 1:49:50 GMT
OK .... I can now acknowledge that when the Anti-Collision and Position Lights (only) switches are selected "OFF" from the Main Panel that this action does not seem set these same switches "OFF" on the O/H Panel too .... whereas they do, intentionally, when working from the O/H Panel and in reverse sequence. This .... "may" be an oversight on "my part" .... OR .... it "may" be how these switches are intended to function between these panels anyway .... I'm honestly not too sure Removing these switches from the Main Panel, for the said reason, does, to me, seem to be a little extreme .... especially when they can, and do, operate correctly from Main Panel view anyway. However .... I do respect ths decision is yours (the end user) though of course We'll have a look at this O/H Panel versus Main Panel business regarding these 2 particular switches when we can .... BUT .... even "assuming" something "might" need fixing there .... then I can't see the solution becomming available until around Christmas time at the soonest ! Mark C AKL/NZ |
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;D
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) could be interfering with his HJG DC9 panels and gauges/core files installation .... and we left things at that !