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Post by anderscn on May 16, 2011 13:43:41 GMT
Hi, Please do not look upon this request as a spoiled child crying out for "give me more.."  BUT, if the Convair panels one day should be updated, I would be extremely happy if they included an INS. But don´t hurry.. I have plenty of stuff in FS still to try out in the meantime.. Best Regards, Anders |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on May 16, 2011 14:24:02 GMT
No problem asking ! ;D At HJG .... in most cases .... we´ve opted for period authenticity "where we can" .... especially in respect of all of the panels we offer. "So far as we´re aware"  .... none of the CV990´s were ever firtted with INS navigation systems. These are the reasons why none of our panels for these aircraft are so equipped. Mark C BOG/CO |
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Post by walterleo on May 16, 2011 17:58:54 GMT
Hi:
For personal pleasure one can install the CIVA INS anyway. But what I doubt is, that the CV 990 flew all its life with the primitive ADI out of the early CV 880. At least the panel of the surviving SPANTAX CV 990 could have been equipped with a more modern ADI.
Kind regards
Walter
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 16, 2011 19:20:06 GMT
The few picture over at airliners.net whereof a few of them is actually spantax, none of them seem to be equipped with the INS.
Being mostly user over-land, I would expect they used VOR-to-VOR navigation instead.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on May 16, 2011 21:09:41 GMT
When the cost of fuel went "UP" .... during the first oil crisis of the early 1970´s (and which is what hastened CV880/CV990 retirement and was the beginning of the end for most mainstream B707/DC8 operations too), CV990 operators .... such as SPANTAX, and MODERN AIR, began to wind cruising MACH speeds all the way down from MACH 0.97/0.95/0.92 to around MACH 0.79/0.78/0.77 .... which reduced fuel consumption considerably and saw range increase quite dramatically too.
In fact MODERN AIR is known to have operated a CV990 from the Eastern US seaboard to Vienna .... "non-stop" .... during the mid 1970´s.
The same airline also operated a CV990 from McMurdo Sound, Antarctica to Christchurch, New Zealand as part of a round-the-world tour during the same period too.
I raised those 2 stories in order to bring up this next bit.
As I thought .... and as Dan's research seems to confirm .... no CV990´s (that we know of) ever appear to have been INS equipped. Long distance overland navigation (like trans-continental routes) would have been by way of VOR to VOR navigation, but, I assume that on very long trans-oceanic routes .... like those related above (between the US eastern seaboard and Europe, and between Antarctica and New Zealand) crews must have relied upon old-fashioned/conventional navigation methods from the 1960´s .... and despite the fact that, at the time these particular long range CV990 operations were undertaken, INS was already widely in-use on the B747 and DC10 jetliners then entering service during the early 1970´s.
That sort of traditional type of navigation could still probably have been done way back then .... because regulations allowed it.
Today .... one would probably be hard-pressed to get authorization to fly a B727 across the Pacific (even island-hopping) without having a GPS being fitted .... simply because the regulations (in my part of the world at least) won´t allow it. I remember this comming to light during the mid 1990´s when KIWI (TRAVEL) INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES was contemplating extending its B727-200 ADVC operations from Hamilton, New Zealand to the Pacific Islands (Tonga, Rarotonga, and Western Samoa). The NZCAA simply wouldn´t allow it .... because their aircraft wasn´t GPS equipped.
Mark C
BOG/COL
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Post by anderscn on May 17, 2011 7:30:11 GMT
Thanks guys, for the clearification. Yes, the 880/990 soon lost the battle against the 707 and the DC8, which could mean that they not were equipped with INS around 1970. I just found this picture on Wikipedia - above the throttle quadrant there is a panel that appears to be an INS panel. But maybe this was a unique aircraft of some special purpose? BR, Anders upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/DN-ST-84-08656.jpg |
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Post by Klaus Hullermann on May 17, 2011 8:04:51 GMT
It looks like an INS (the screen left to it looks like a weather radar and/or TCAS). Right to the INS are some radios (I think ADF and Transponder).
Klaus
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 17, 2011 8:08:55 GMT
Nice find there Anders. Well first of all this is a CV880  Secondly INS = "Inertial Navigation System" in general people call the Delco Carousel IV-A INS (CIVA) for "INS" but that aside. I actually think it is an ONS (Omega Navigation System) panel you've found, obviously not standard, and perhaps even for testing reasons. |
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 17, 2011 8:12:24 GMT
Well No  it is NOT and ONS panel .... |
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 17, 2011 8:16:03 GMT
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 17, 2011 8:17:21 GMT
It's an INS panel .... and now the type ..... |
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Post by walterleo on May 17, 2011 9:40:00 GMT
Thanks for the quote, it demonstrates the point I wanted to raise: At least the later CV 990 didnt fly with a primitive ADI and HSI. Thanks Walter |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on May 18, 2011 20:18:52 GMT
I wouldn´t mind betting the NAV system, in that CV990 panel view, might represent some form of "DOPPLER NAVIGATION SYSTEM" .... and which likely would have varied in type/appearance, according to the period of suckh equipment, as may be suggested by the following image examples ....  ![]()  Most, if not all, B707/DC8 aircraft were actuall fitted with DOPPLER navigation systems during the 1960´s and 1970´s .... and this would "probably·" be consistent, with that era, in respect of those CV990 aircraft which were configured to fly long-ish overwater sectors .... such as those operated by MODERN AIR .... and I think SWISSAIR may have flown their CV990´s as far afield as Rio De Janeiro at one stage. I know for a fact our DC8-52´s (AIR NEW ZEALAND) were equipped with DUAL DOPPLER navigation systems from the very late 1960´s/very early 1970´s (making the flight navigators role completly redundant) .... and these systems remained with these aircraft until their retirement from service during the mid 1980´s. Now we´ve learned that "some" CV990´s (but not all) were indeed fitted with some form of electronic navigation equipment/device, I "might" ask George if he wants to consider throwing a CV990 INS panel together for us (w´´d have to use our standard B707/B727/DC8 INS) .... and which could be a relatively straightforward/easy modification, I suspect, since our CV990 panel Overhead and AP sub panels are one and the same with those of our current INS equipped DC8 panels. "IF" we undertake this proposition then it´s simply going to be done on he basis of "IF he/George wants to do it" .... and .... "IF SO/he does" .... then we "MIGHT" have something to offer "LATER ON". No promises though ! Mark C BOG/COL |
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 18, 2011 21:47:24 GMT
Except for the quite remarkable key signs on the picture Anders found, and the same in the C130 I found ... they are not the same as on your Doppler picture ....
I'm more certain that it is either a CIVA (other than the IV-A) or another equivalent.
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on May 18, 2011 22:43:15 GMT
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.... none of the CV990´s were ever firtted with INS navigation systems.
it is NOT and ONS panel ....