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Post by mamelinv on Feb 6, 2012 17:17:10 GMT
Hi everyone, I am experiencing a problem with the automatic pilot on all FS9 Caravelle models. I honestly do not know why, but when the plane climbs above flight level 250, there is an oscillation in the pitch attitud, as if the autopilot was not capable of sustaining a stable climb attitude. The nose of the plane starts to go up and down.  Anyone have this same problem? If anyone knows how to fix it, I would appreciate the help. Best. Juan. |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Feb 6, 2012 19:13:16 GMT
I, personally, tested all of the CARAVELLE´s .... each one of them .... many times over .... prior to their eventual release here at HJG. I have never encountered this particular issue with any one of these aircraft/panels/FDE´s .... having had each one at FL310 .... during AP controlled flight "for hours at a time" .... and with "perfectly stable flight results every time. Nor have I ever seen, or heard of, any such report .... like this .... prior to now .... so far as I can recall  since we started releasing the CARAVELLE family some 2 years ago You should be getting perfect stable flight results (of course) .... way above FL250 and even above FL310 .... with every CARAVELLE version. I do recall some 4-5 years ago we had some folk reporting what could have been a similar AP ALT HLD pitch problem with our B707 panels (the simulation would fly in level cruise, but, be constantly oscillating/porpoising up-and-down slowly for the duration). Other folk .... fortunately by far the majority .... experienced no such problem whatsoever .... as was my experience also .... until a SP update (or it might have been DIRECT X related in relation to the SP update) was applied to my WINDOWS XP PRO operating system .... and then I too, suddenly and inexplicably, began experiencing the very same issue reported by a few in relation to our B707 panels. I remember commenting regarding this, here on this forum, at the time. Check out the last few postings on the following linked thread .... tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1852&page=2.... it may, or may not, have some bearing on your own more recent experience .... "IF" your situation may, in any way, be related to this particular issue. I mention "THIS" only because it is the only thing I can think of, immediately, that might result in such a condition as you describe. It´s odd, you say, you are apparently experiencing the very same issue with each CARAVELLE version though. The gauges sets for each of these aircraft panel versions are mostly separate .... being up to some 12 months (or more) apart in terms of development time. "THIS" then suggests something deep within your operating system, maybe, doesn´t like the AP gauge programming for all of these panels to be similarly affected simultaneously. Once again  .... I can only stress there is no problem with any of these CARAVELLE panels/gauges/FDE´s, that we are aware of that might need fixing (in terms of what we provide here) or what may otherwise be causative of any such problem. Mark C BOG/CO |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Feb 6, 2012 20:25:04 GMT
Just a couple of practical performance issues you might need to be aware of .... and which you might also want to check/revise in regard to your own flying porcedures .... Make sure you´re not flying "too fast" and/or "too heavy". For best flight performance .... at (but not exceeding) MGTOW your speed and altitude should be in the vicinity of the following .... CARAVELLE 1 .... MACH 0.71 at FL250 .... which should be considered the altitude limit (in FS) for this particular aircraft version at MGTOW. It can climb higher subject to subtantial fuel burn off, or much lighter weight, or per progressive step climbing. CARAVELLE 3 .... MACH 0.71 at FL250 .... or .... MACH 0.74 at FL310. CARAVELLE 6N .... MACH 0.71 at FL250 .... or .... MACH 0.76 at FL310. CARAVELLE 6R .... MACH 0.72 at FL250 .... or .... MACH 0.77 at FL310 CARAVELLE 10R/10B1 .... MACH 0.73 at FL250 .... or .... MACH 0.77 at FL310. "IF" you´re flying these CARAVELLE´s too heavy, too, high, and too fast .... then an oscillation could, possibly, develop during AP controlled (ALT HLD) level cruise/flight and assuming a "very rare" situation, like that which I related above, isn´t the cause of your particular experience .... then your problem "might be as simple as basic operations procedures". Iit may be of any assistance to you to review my BASIC FLYING GUIDE .... for each CARAVELLE model .... which is located at the end of my CARAVELLE PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES posting at the top of "THIS" forum page. A couple of other things too .... which just crossed my mind .... Make sure you are using the correct panels for each CARAVELLE aircraft type. Using the wrong panel with each aircraft type/FDE "might" result in such problems as you describe. If levelling off "too abruptly" at your target cruising altitude .... then this might also result in an oscillation/porpoising motion too during AP controlled level cruise .... but .... it wouldn´t be a constant/sustained motion, but rather, it would flatten-out, slowly, over 10-15 minutes or so duration. Should this be a contributing factor, then, always ensure that the last 1000 FT of climb towards any target cruising altitude is reduced to less than 1000 FPM .... and then reduced to 500 FPM within 500 FT of any target cruising altitude .... and then similarly reduced to 200 FPM within 200 FT of any target cruising altitude .... which more-or-less ensures smooth altitude captures once the ALT HLD tab is manually selected. I hope "like hell" some of this (at least) helps .... because beyond "ALL THIS" .... I´m really all out of suggestions/advice .... as I´ve never, previously, seen or heard of, this particular issue with any of these CARAVELLE simulations  Mark C BOG/COL |
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Post by walterleo on Feb 12, 2012 23:03:21 GMT
Hi:
Besides of flying outside the flight envelope also FS9 can step in with unwanted interferences, like bringing in new actual weather. This can result at high altitudes in upheavals. With other planes I experience also some upheavals passing certain flight levels, seems this is an internal FS9 problem. Finally: The Caravels were not strong climbers at high altitudes.
Kind regards
Walter
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Post by aeroart on Feb 26, 2012 0:43:27 GMT
Hi Juan,
I had that pitch oscillation problem with a prop aircraft at low altitudes. I don't remember which one, but I increased the pitch stability setting in the aircraft.cfg file, and that cured it after a few trials. If you're going to make changes to that file, make a copy of it first, just in case.
Art
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Feb 26, 2012 2:25:48 GMT
I wouldn´t recommend doing that.
All FS aircraft (FDE) are different.
What may work with one FS aircraft doesn´t necessarily apply/work with everything else.
"MAMELINEV" sais he´s, apparently, experiencing an issue from FL250 and higher.
It´s possible such a problem could commence from that FS altitude .... and then progress (worsen) as one gets higher .... because 25,000 FT seems, from my many years of testing experience, to be the "magical altitude" from which such issues "can start to become apparent" .... but .... "THE THING IS" .... there´s absolutely no pitch problem, that I can replicate, with any of these CARAVELLE aircraft .... and I´m the person who´s been responsible for testing each version prior to its release here, and, I´ve also been flying them all since we first began introducing these simulations some 2 years ago .... and up until just a couple of days ago too whilst testing new CARAVELLE textures which we´ll release within the next website update.
"MAMELINEV" also states he´s experiencing the same problem with "all of these CARAVELLE simulations", but, I tend to feel any such problem is common to his own PC/installation .... or even possibly his ownflying technique.
"IF" this problem was a general/widespread one then .... (a) I´d have experienced it too and we´d never have released the offending aircraft until the issue was fixed .... and (b) I´d also expect to see a forum full of such complaints.
In 2 years of CARAVELLE testing, and hosting (by HJG) for AFG .... I´ve never, yet, experienced or ever heard of this issue previously .... "so far as I can recall".
Mark C
BOG/CO
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Post by walterleo on Feb 27, 2012 16:18:20 GMT
Silly Question:
Was simulation speed normal? If higher than normal (2x or 4x) no wonder that pitch oscillations in highly complex panels (as the Caravelle panels are) can feed back into a loss of control.
Walter
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Post by +mrfaosfx on Feb 28, 2012 18:08:19 GMT
Thats what happens when you climb too fast. As you near the cruising altitude, you should be climbing at around 300 FPM any higher and the autopilot will overcompensate.
This happens with almost all aircraft...the higher you climb the more "touchy" the controls get, one slight movement can seem you yanked the controls hard in one direction.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Mar 1, 2012 14:34:30 GMT
That´s, essentially, what I implied within one of my earliest postings on this thread .... as follows .... .... HOWEVER .... there "IS" a known FS issue, which can be experienced on "SOME PC´s ONLY" .... that can, from FL250, result in sustained/continuos, and even progressive/worsening, instability, during AP controlled cruise (I suddenly experienced this, 4 years ago, after an SP or DIRECT X update, using one of our aircraft which was previously known, to me, to perform absolutely faultlessly .... as I also mentioned within one of my earlier postings on this particular thread) .... BUT .... I´ve "NEVER" experienced, or even heard of, this sort of condition/issue in relation to any of the HJG hosted AFG CARAVELLE simulations .... which have only ever been demonstrated, to me, to perform absolutely superbly within FS2004, at both low and high altitudes and within every other flight regime also. I think one of the greatest problems, today, for those of us whom "TRY" (as we do) to troubleshoot/resolve issues reported with any particular simulation .... is the fact that with so much variation available, now, in terms of PC´s, OS´s, and upgrades (etc), no one particular FS product/simulation can, necessarily, be guaranteed to function flawlessly on every individual system. These sorts of situations are "EXTREMLY RARE" .... of course .... but .... we "HAVE" seen evidence of this "HERE" a few times in the past .... and .... unfortunately .... there´s often "BUGGER ALL" we can do about it .... despite the fact that we´d truly like to be able to resolve everything for everyone whom reports an issue. AGAIN .... I´m perfectly satisfied that "IF" this "supposed AP controlled cruise stability issue" isn´t a simply consequence of end user flight procedures/"PILOT ERROR" (because I simply can´t replicate the problem) .... then it´s, ´quite obviously, an "extremly rare" issue that´s "maybe" associated with this particular end users PC, and/or "possibly" something installed or running in the background on it in particular. Anything short of "THIS" .... and "IF" this were a widespread/generally problem (which it´s not) .... then I´d expect to have seen a forum full of regular complaints (over the past 2 years during which we´ve hosted these CARAVELLE simulations), but, which most certainly doesn´t appear to be the case .... in this particular case  As much as I´d like to be able to pin-point/resolve the issue this particular end user "sais he´s experiencing" .... I, reluctantly, feel there´s nothing much more I can add/suggest without risking repeating what I´ve already said right from the very beginning  Mark C BOG/CO |
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Post by M.I.B. on Sept 10, 2012 15:08:30 GMT
I'm having the very same problem! Let me say the panel manuals for AFG's Caravelle are extremely complicated and extremely hard (to be read impossible) to understand. There is no logic whatsoever in the lights system. NO OFFENSE TO HJG, I love HJG's planes, Tritar is my favorite, but these guys (AFG) may have got something wrong (the manuals at least, were made to be understandable only for themselves).
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Sept 10, 2012 21:22:06 GMT
"PILOT ERROR" .... I suspect ! I can't speak for the "official panel manual/documents" which were compiled by Benoit GAURANT .... because I've never read these. I had to learn the CARAVELLE from scratch during our own pre-release flight testing .... and in doing so I opted to write "my own" manual and basic flying guides, and which are posted "HERE", on this same forum page and per my "CARAVELLE PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES" posting. I can assure everyone that AFG "have not" made any errors/miscalculations .... in either the flight or panel modeling of these fine simulations. In fact each and every one of the CARAVELLE simulations performs "SPLENDIDLY" .... provided they're flown "properly" to start with .... OR .... they simply wouldn't ever have been released/represented by HJG I acknowledge that "1 person" has reported a pitch issue during AP controlled flight using these CARAVELLE simulations .... and .... "1 other person" has reported similar experiences with unrelated and non-AFG/HJG simulation. It's also known that pitch stability issues can arise with some simulations during high speed cruise and at altitudes in excess of 25,000 FT (in fact I, once, experienced this very issue myself, a few years ago, with the HJG B707's .... as I related within a previous posting above) .... but .... experience/investigation has also indicated that such a condition "DOES NOT" occur on all/every PC/FS installation of a particular simulation generally. Again .... no such AP pitch instability exists among these CARAVELLE simulations .... at least not that I can replicate "on my own PC", per "my own installations" of each of these CARAVELLE simulations, and per "my own flying technique". All I see/experience is "PERFECTLY STABLE AP CONTROLLED FLIGHT". Just to elaborate a little further in regard to this .... In many cases the cause of pitch stability problems, during high altitude/high speed AP controlled flight, can be quite fundamental .... as a result of, possibly, exceeding the intended performance limits of any simulation .... as follows .... 1. Flying too high, too fast, and too heavy .... might result in FS pitch stability issues. The following are my own flight recommendations for each CARAVELLE version .... 2. Too abrupt AP controlled altitude captures might also result in FS pitch stability issues. The following is my own flight recommendation for AP controlled altitude captures for each CARAVELLE version .... 3. Be sure one is using the CARAVELLE aircraft base packs and panels "AS SUPPLIED ON THIS/HJG WEBSITE. They are slightly different from the original releases and those files hosted elsewhere. Probably the bottom line here is .... CARAVELLE aircraft do not represent modern jetliner technology .... so .... they can't/shouldn't be flown as such. Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on Sept 10, 2012 22:21:01 GMT
You might actually also see it if you fly too slow .....
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Sept 10, 2012 23:35:55 GMT
The greater consequence of that, though, would be an increasing AOA .... "nose up pitch attitude" as a result of the low, or deteriorating, airspeed.
The ocscillation, even during AP controlled cruise, would then start to commence somewhat in advance of a full stall .... if one let it things get "that desperate.
BUT .... I agree .... it's another possibility.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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guy
CV-990
Posts: 20
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Post by guy on Sept 11, 2012 9:08:56 GMT
Hi, I have seen those pitch oscillations also , but in FSX. I can't say about Fs9 as i never flew the Afg-Caravelle in Fs9. I cured it by setting the parameter PITCH_STABILITY = 2.3 (instead of 1.0) in the tuning section of the aircraft.cfg as I had signaled in this thread: tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=caravelle&action=display&thread=3949Maybe that works also in Fs9 ! I know the Caravelle is not officially compatible with FSX, but it works very well in Fsx and I just wanted to help ! Btw, Benoit Gaurants manuals of the Caravelle may be complicated, but that is also due to the fact that the Caravelle itself was complicated ! The manuals are imho very complete and well done! Guy |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Sept 11, 2012 9:31:16 GMT
No problem .... but .... I do need to stress that we don't provide FSX support for the CARAVELLE .... and won't be doing so until such a time as the developer/s is ready to make these simulations fully FSX compatible .... "and which is something we/HJG can't interfere with".
I did hear a rumour to the effect that FSX compatibility "MAY POSSIBLY" be planned .... but .... there's been no further word on that yet .... SO .... in the meantime it's FS9/FS2004 "ONLY" .... sorry !
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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.... I can only stress there is no problem with any of these CARAVELLE panels/gauges/FDE´s, that we are aware of that might need fixing (in terms of what we provide here) or what may otherwise be causative of any such problem. 
