I'm having an issue with the dc-9-30 ice protect system. Once airborne I'm getting a master caution light with the warnings:"airfoil ice protect pressure abnormal" and "L&R ice protect temperature low". I know I must have something set wrong, can't figure out what it is though.
Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 5, 2015 18:30:20 GMT
Are all the Anti-Icing switches, on the lower left portion of Overhead, selected "ON" .... or just some of them ?
If it's the latter only .... than can you identify for me precisely which ones you've selected "ON"
Can you also let me know precisely which particular DC-9 and base pack and paael version you're using too (assuming you're using our panel series as is suplied "HERE") .... so I can refamiliarise myself with the simulation.
Been a while since I last flew it .... due to other projects recently released here at HJG .... along with yet others we plan to release, and re-release, in the near future.
Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 6, 2015 0:50:08 GMT
I've just had a look at this for you anyway.... and what I'm about to report will likely apply to the any of the DC-9 simulations and panels we/HJG currently offer "here" ....
When the Overhead Panel Ice Protect switches (the 2 labelled "AIR FOIL" in this particular case) are selected "ON" these will trigger an indication (illumination) within the ICE PROTECT section of the O/H annunciator panel .... to the following effect ....
AIR FOIL ICE PROT PRESS ABNORMAL L ICE PROTECT TEM LOW
.... in relation to the left AIR FOIL switch only .... and ....
RIGHT ICE PROT TEMP LOW
.... in relation to the left AIR FOIL switch only .... and which will also in-turn illuminate the main Panel Master Caution lamp too.
Selecting both switches "OFF" .... cancels each of the O/H panel annnunciator indications .... but ....the M/P Master Caution lamp will remain on until it's manually extinguished by left mouse-clicking upon its surface.
The above indications will appear in response to either, or both of, the "AIR FOIL" switches being selected "ON" respectively .... irrespective of the HJG DC-9 panel version employed with each HJG DC-9 aircraft base pack version .... and regardless whether or not a correct, or incorrect, panel assignment is being employed.
I performed a quick climb to cruising altitude (31,000 FT) .... and messed around, a bit, with the anti-icing, and other, switches on the way up .... just to see if I could determine any particular sequence, or configuration, that would cause the anuncicitor lamps to extinguish whilst the 2 AIR FOIL switches were selected "ON" .... but .... couldn't find any.
Best resolution for the moment ....
Turn'em both (the AIR FOIL switches) "ON" if you feel you need'em .... and just cancel the M/P Master Caution then ignore the O/H anunnunciation .... OR .... just leave'em both "OFF" completely.
Nothing major, or diasterous, will develop as a result of either of the above resolutions .... according to the test/s I've just performed.
I'm not sure if what's being presented here .... as seen/reported .... is a fault (it could be) .... or just the way it works in FS.
It could also be that those anunciator lamps might not enxtinguih unless a certain SAT temperature is first indicated (I noted -43 on the SAT gauges at 31,000 FT during my test) .... or .... it might require an "icing' scenario to first be enable in FS .... I simply don't know
How things work in the real world .... and in FS .... can often be contradictory or not conform to a particular logic (in the case of FS) .... of course
Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 7, 2015 18:03:25 GMT
I had another look at this particular minor issue last night.
This time I activated a "severe icing" scenario within FS .... also setting a substatially colder ambient tepperature (at SL) too .... hoping to induce a wing icing condition where by the simulated AIR FOIL anti-ice system might be required in order to "take care of it".
I didn't get any ice detection indications .... as I thought I might see .... but then again .... I don't recall ever having seen such represented within this panel series .... unless I've missed it.
Last nights test/retest (idea) paralelled what I reported above (and which is in-line with "RPM151's" report too) .... in that whether or not the icing scenario I tried to set up worked (unless I'm missing a vital element here in setting up such a scenario and that someone can possibly put me right in regard to), my observations .... and therefore recommended handling of the situation .... remain precisely the same.
Again .... nothing major, or diasterous, seems to develop (at all in fact) as a result of either of the siruation or suggested resolution.
The DC-9's airfoil ice protection system requires one or both of the pneumatic crossfeed valves on the center pedestal to be opened. The modelling of the HJG panel is slightly off, in that both levers must be positioned on. So if you open the valves, all the cautions should go away, and your slats/stabilizer will bask in glorious heat!
Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jan 1, 2016 23:51:58 GMT
In that case .... we may be stuck with/have to live with what we've currently got .... since, in the event of any discrepency (in regard to the systems fidelity currently represented), I'm not sure that what we've got can be so easily edited.
That's more the result of "other priorities" now though .... I admit !!!
In any case .... during my recent re-testing, in respose to this thread, I did have the CP panel crossfeed/s "OPEN" (standard procedure advocated by me per my guides/s), but, any time the 2 AEROFOIL anti-ice switches were selected "ON" .... I still got (what appeared to be) an abnormality indication (per the OH panel annunciator system) "immediately after T/O".
I therefore resolved to simply activate those 2 switches .... if I felt they should be selected "ON" .... then ignore the OH panel annunciator indication .... OR .... leave both switches "OFF" .... and activate them only if I ever got an icing warning/indication.
The problem here being .... I don't ever recall seeing such a specific "icing warning" indication among any of these DC-9 panels .... regardless of the environmental conditions I endeavoured setting up in order to try'n encourage icing.
Interesting. Here's what I discovered with some quick testing after your last post...
DC-9-10 / JT8D-1 model Both AIR FOIL switches ON Both pneumatic crossfeeds OPEN
Here's what I found:
1) On initial selection of the AIR FOIL switches to ON, the AIRFOIL ICE PROT PRESS ABNORMAL and L and R ICE PROTECT TEMP LOW lights illuminate.
2) 30 seconds after turning the switches on, all caution lights extinguish and the WING ANTI-ICE ON status light illuminates.
3) Pressing the TAIL button causes the WING ANTI-ICE ON status light to extinguish and the TAIL DE-ICE ON status light to illuminate.
4) Retarding the thrust to below 60% N2 causes the AIRFOIL ICE PROT PRESS ABNORMAL and L and R ICE PROTECT TEMP LOW lights to illuminate.
5) Advancing the thrust to 60% or more causes the previous caution lights to extinguish.
There's some other things I tried, all with similar results. I think the keys are that the airfoil anti-ice requires both pneumatic crossfeeds to be open, isn't available for 30 seconds after being supplied with air (i.e. switches on, crossfeeds open, whichever happens last), and the N2 must be maintained above 60%. All of these traits come down to maintaining sufficient bleed air.
Try those same experiments and see what results you get. I downloaded the latest versions from the HJG website just for this test, and made sure the correct panel is aliased.
Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jan 2, 2016 3:45:32 GMT
AH .... OK .... I think I've gotcha now Al
The "Pneumatic Cross Feed Valve Levers" .... those 2 suckers with the large white handles and which located at the very bottom of the CP panel on either side of the Rudder Trim Knob .... out of immediate view unless one raises the CP panel slightly.
I appear to have been confusing these with the single Pnematic Fuel Cross Feed Lever located further up the same CP sub panel view
Pushing'em both up "DOES INDEED" seem to take care of the annuniator lamp indications when the AEROFOIL Anti-Ice switches are selected "ON"
"GOT IT" .... now .... a little/well/a few years late .... but .... I've definitely "GOT IT"
Just tried doing that (pushing'em both all the way "UP") and it definitely seems to work/ take care of those indications (extinguishing those annunciator adbisories) .... after roughly 30 seconds .... as you mention.
See folks .... it's never too late for even an old phart, like me, to learn something about the panel/s they represent, and support .... when guided by the "the right professional advice" .... .... "THANKS" Al
Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jan 2, 2016 4:39:32 GMT
"LIKEWISE" Al .... and all the best to you also
I've just performed another couple of tests .... using different DC-9 versions since we do feature 2 basically different DC-9 panel configurations among what we offer .... and Al's advice definitely resolves the mystery
"IF" the 2 AEROFOIL Anti-Ice switches, within the Anti-Ice section of the O/H panel, are selected "ON" .... the annunciator will display/illuminate 2 abnormal condition lamps .... as described/quoted earlier within this thread.
When each of the 2 "Pneumatic Cross Feed Valve Levers" .... located on the bottom of the CP panel, on either side of the Rudder Trim knob, are selected "UP/ON" .... these 2 annunciuator advisories, in conjunctuon with the 2 AEROFOL Anti-Ice switches, will automatically extinguish after approximately 30 seconds .... just as Al advises.
The Main Panel Master Caution lamp can then be extinguished manually !!!!
"IF" one performs a cold & dark manual engine startup procedure .... also requiring use of the APU system featured with these DC-9 panel s .... then one's unlikely to be caught out here .... simply because selecting both "Pneumatic Cross Feed Valve Levers" to their "UP/ON" detente is part of the engine startup procedure/s.
If one flies these DC-9 simulations from the default engines started scenario, then, one will likely be caught out .... if not first aware of this situation .... simply because these same 2 "Pneumatic Cross Feed Valve Levers" are always in their "DOWN/OFF" detente .... by default .... as part of this particular scenario.
A very easy trap for the unsuspecting/unaware .... and one I'd long forgotten myself (though it "IS" actually covered .... more-or less .... within the forum based DC-9 Installation & Handling Notes/our forum based online manual .... written by yours truly) through my not recently having performed a fully manual DC-9 panel engine startup procedure .... for years actually !!!!
Again .... "WELL DONE" Al .... and another one of the great HJG mysteries finally resolved
Hi friends: Bravissimo to have solved the riddle. Wanted to add: Once I was sitting as PAX in an AUA MD-80 approaching Vienna through a thick winter storm. The guys up front used the speedbrakes and quite a high power setting while they passed through clouds full of snow. So the failure indication below 60 % power is quite realistic.
Once I was sitting as PAX in an AUA MD-80 approaching Vienna through a thick winter storm. The guys up front used the speedbrakes and quite a high power setting while they passed through clouds full of snow. So the failure indication below 60 % power is quite realistic.
It sure is! The 717 was notorious for that same behavior. With the engine anti-ice selected on, the engines defaulted to a higher idle thrust setting to maintain bleed margin. But even at high idle, it would still have trouble keeping sufficient bleed air pressure to the airfoil anti-ice. I had quite a few times where I was "riding the speedbrakes" with the power advanced, trying to get down and slow down at the same time.
With the high engine idle, that thing didn't want to descend anyway. Adding power at the same time? That was some tricky descent planning!
Hi Al: The 717: how it did provide sufficient air for the cabin pressurisation while descending? The Tu-134 (O.K. quite older) needed one engine at 80 % the other at idle to come down to FL 200 for not killing all on board. And that beast could not deploy its speedbrakes inflight, but had a sturdy gear....