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Post by George Carty - HJG on Sept 22, 2018 19:25:19 GMT
A few days ago I was reading with interest a thread on a flightsim forum based in New Zealand (where HJG's own Mark Cranston – aka "aerofoto" – hails from) concerning our DC-10 add-ons made public last month. The forum user "cowpatz" was upset that HJG is still based on FS9 (and to some extent FSX) rather than using more recent sims such as X-Plane and Prepar3d. After Mark responded, he made a point that HJG's "retro" (in computer terms, not in terms of the aircraft simulated) tech base is quite typical of freeware development groups, and that the latest sims are dominated overwhelmingly by payware: I find this rather surprising, because I would have expected that payware developers would need teams of full-time developers to gain such a quality advantage, and I wouldn't have expected the market for payware add-ons to be large enough to pay such teams of developers. Or is my thinking still in the past, not realizing that sims like Prepar3d are pitched at a different user base with far more willingness to spend money? (The fact that Prepar3d typically costs US$199 – about 4 times what FSX cost -- may be symptomatic of this...) Seeing this got me wondering whether the current closed-source model still used by most developers of free flight simulation add-ons has had its day? Perhaps if the source codes (including C and XML gauge codes, and GMAX 3D models) were made publicly available (perhaps on Github in the case of code) then it would be possible to bring more developers into the fray and thus weaken payware's advantage? Or has free (as in beer) FS development stayed closed-source for very good reasons (perhaps because the risk of work being plagiarized by payware developers was too great)? I'd be interested to see people's thoughts on this issue... George
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Post by canuck on Sept 22, 2018 19:51:25 GMT
The comparison of CBFS and HJG is bizarre. CBFS apart from a couple of interested (now retired) members produce absolutely nothing. HJG on the other hand does and continues to do so. CBFS seems to be grinding to a halt following the untimely passing of a number of its founders, most recently DaveB. If it were not for the announcement of birthdays there would be almost zero traffic. I only go there about twice a week nowadays when it used to be a daily visit. I pop in here daily still usually.
Otherwise this whole genre was built upon freeware from Day 1. I am pretty sure that if it were not for freeware and goodwill, MSFS would never have reached as far a FSX. In turn P3D would never have existed nor the failed Steam offerings. I cannot remember the XP story but am pretty sure the founder (name escapes me at the moment) was inspire by an early MSFS to improve upon it in his own special way, so again would probably not exist today either.
Long live HJG.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Sept 23, 2018 1:36:47 GMT
Need to be careful with interpretations here He wasn´t upset .... he was simply asking were we P3D compatible as yet .... and within his same query, and by implication, hoping we´d eventually be so in the furure. Make no mistake .... P3D "IS" becomming the simulator of choice for many, but, it´s something we/HJG can´t oblige in regard to. As I´ve stated a number of times now .... both privately and publicly .... I, personally, don´t want to be involved with taking HJG to P3D .... if it´s going to go there at all. That´s for someone else to do/another team .... but not me I wouldn´t point the finger at finger at payware developers in regard to that .... since the vast majority of them are more than quite respecting .... BUT .... plagiarism is certainly alive´n´well and practiced by any number of freeware associates and not necessarily developers. As far as the like of SOURCE CODE availability is concerned .... what people do with "their own personal" data is (IMHO) entirely up to them of course .... BUT .... I´m not keen on ours being made publicly available .... simply because in the past I´ve seen, and even been a victim of, too much of our work having been exploited by people whom seek to promote "themselves" .... and whom lack the common decency to "ASK" beforehand and/or credit the appropriate people accordingly. Some people like to try´n to justify these actions by saying .... "what´s the problem" .... and .... "they´re not making money out of it so they´re doing nobody any real harm". One person in paticular (whom will remain nameless) even once accused us of being "too proprietory" in regard to what we "OWN". Where I´m comming from primarily though is .... we always "ASK" .... and it´s nice to/we like to be "ASKED" in return (call me old fashioned if you wish but it´s the courteous thing to do) .... as well as being "ACKNOWLEDGED" too, but, the problem is a lot of people simply don´t do it today .... and that´s what tends to piss me off. During my own 18 years of association with HJG there´s not much I haven´t seen or experienced .... both in the positive and negative senses. Mark C BOG/CO
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Post by darrenvox on Sept 23, 2018 2:58:21 GMT
yes i thought cowpatz (saying from who you are mentioning, as i am not a meber at that forum) ) was doing something wrong but realized he as just asking..and i doubt this group will be based around newer sims, but that comes down to tony and mark. Sometimes we have to rember the limitattions that HJG has. rome wasnt built in a day right..
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Post by George Carty - HJG on Sept 23, 2018 7:51:23 GMT
As I´ve stated a number of times now .... both privately and publicly .... I, personally, don´t want to be involved with taking HJG to P3D .... if it´s going to go there at all. That´s for someone else to do/another team .... but not me Personally I'd be overjoyed if we could just get to a point where FSX-compatible panels and sounds were available for our entire flight line, and not even think about P3D unless this could be achieved first. I wouldn´t point the finger at finger at payware developers in regard to that .... since the vast majority of them are more than quite respecting .... BUT .... plagiarism is certainly alive´n´well and practiced by any number of freeware associates and not necessarily developers. As far as the like of SOURCE CODE availability is concerned .... what people do with "their own personal" data is (IMHO) entirely up to them of course .... BUT .... I´m not keen on ours being made publicly available .... simply because in the past I´ve seen, and even been a victim of, too much of our work having been exploited by people whom seek to promote "themselves" .... and whom lack the common decency to "ASK" beforehand and/or credit the appropriate people accordingly. My question about "why not make the source publicly available" was about FS freeware developers in general (not just HJG in particular) as I don't seem to have noticed any significant examples of open-source FS aircraft or panel projects – please correct me if I'm wrong of course! George
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Sept 23, 2018 14:39:53 GMT
Very tired last night and misresad your intent George It´s "ENCOURAGING" to know that George .... an there´s probably nothing more than we´d all like to be able to do, but, after "18 years of this" (so far) I do now find myself getting to the point where my FS enthusiasm isn´t qute what it used to be. Having said this though .... I´d support your desire, but, only in so far as time´s available to me to be able to so and without hurrying projects .... and the only other pre-condition I´d apply to this also is that I´d only work with "you" and the great development team we already have here. OH .... there´s been a couple .... 1 can think of. I won´t be lured into stating which one´s though .... simply because that could identify another one of our anticipated forthcomming releases .... information I never give away beforehand and until such projects are actually released for download and then announced. All part of my preferred strategy .... "THE ELEMENT (or Elelephant in this particular csase) OF SURPRISE" In regard to the intent of your question though .... I don´t think think the preference/s of most "FREEWAREE" developers are much different from ours at HJG. Some developers are quite relaxed and happy to provide their data for the asking .... whilst others are more "guarded" of it .... each being their own personal preferences which need to be respected. The moment something/anything is released publicly then one effectively looses a great deal of control over it in the sense of .... who accesses it .... what´s then done with it .... and who´s credited (often unjustifiably, if not wrongly, if not both) for it too .... and it´s here one´s prospectively at risk of falling victim to "blatant plagiarsm". Even I, and we/HJG, have in the past fallen victim to this per the actions of certain few unscrupolous personalities within the FS community and whom seem intent to want to promote themselves using other other peoples work as their lever to do so. No developer should have to suffer that sort of crap .... but have unfortunately .... and which has resulted in any amount of talent then being lost by the FS community .... simply because some those developers who´s work is violated finally have a "guts full" and get out of FS dvelpment altogether .... and I honestly can´t blame them. I think it´s unreasonable to expect that developers should relesase their source data .... "not that you´re saying they should do so". Having initiated and/or otherwise been a party to many successful FS product related negotiations in the past there´s right and wrong way of doing things. If reverybody did things the right way .... and were respecting of agreements and everyone else´s work (etc) .... then .... there wouldn´t be any (or rather there´d be fewer) poblems. BUT .... some people among us simply aren´t honest, trustworthy, or even respecting either .... and that´s what has the potential to to create "PROBLEMS" we neither need nor want. I, personally, wouldn´t recommend anyone release their source data .... at least not without "a very carefully negotated agreement in respect of its use, distribution, and accreditation" (etc) having been properly forumlated beforehand. Agree with me or not (I don´t really give 2 hoots) .... that´s my own personal "FIXED VIEW" .... through my own experience/s and knowledge of what´s sometimes negatively transpired within the FS world in the past Mark C BOG/CO
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Post by Peter Liddell - HJG Admin on Sept 23, 2018 19:42:35 GMT
The problem with P3D is it isn't supposed to be for entertainment... it's supposed to be used by student pilots and the like according to the license. MS Flight was supposed to be the main replacement for FSX and when Microsoft killed it it rather upset the product paths.
For my part when FSX dies, I will probably be moving the a mix of XPlane and FS2 depending what I'm looking to do... XPlane for open add ons, FS2 for "prettyness"... but hopefully I can keep FS9 going for a bit longer. I'm sticking to Windows 7 on my PC, and am hopeful for something like XPBox to get stable enough to be an option to run older software in a post Windows 10 world (FS9 isn't the only pre-Vista or even Pre-Windows2000 era software I still use) but I know I'm becoming a rarer breed and being in the IT world I know what is coming down the pipe... how to avoid some of it but at some point FS9/FSX will just not be viable anymore unless someone can figure out a way to basically VM it into a newer system... not that running a VMWare session of Windows 7 inside a newer version is beyond me but it's not ideal or desirable either.
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Post by tgibson on Oct 14, 2018 18:20:43 GMT
Hi,
The major reason for me sticking with FS9 is because we are modeling a retro world. It makes no sense to me to move beyond this era even further than FS9 is - this only means that older airports, navaids (such as fewer LOM NDBs, etc.), and other details are now even further from my era. Since FSX and beyond didn't really give me much extra to work with for my retro airports and aircraft, I don't feel the need to go beyond this.
My plan now is to keep my WinXP and Win 7 computers and buy a modern one for the internet when Win 7 is no longer viable. I will use things like memory sticks to transfer files between them. While this is not ideal, it will be what I'm left with once FS9 (and FS9 utility programs) no longer run on the newest computers.
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Post by Falcon on Oct 14, 2018 20:37:00 GMT
I recently upgraded my ole Vista OS machine with a new windows 10. Didn't want it but thought I'd try it. Well, I have had no problems running any of the FSX features on it. Addons are many, real weather, AI's up the zing zing, updated scenery files, and cranked up settings and still no problems. Once one figures out that the new Windows 10 OS, will run really old software if you take the time to run compatibility mode. I'm running some on XP SP2 and many on Vista SP2, Some have to be given Administrative rights, but there is no problems. I run my old 11 year old printer on it with the original software. So I have yet to run across anything negative. I don't like windows 10 explorer file tree's , but then …….Just saying.
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Post by George Carty - HJG on Oct 15, 2018 7:50:29 GMT
My experience is that FS9 and FSX will only run on Windows 10 if you install a "No CD" crack, because Windows 10 removed the secdrv.sys driver required by the DRM used on their discs (along with the discs of many other older Windows games).
George
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Post by darrenvox on Oct 15, 2018 18:13:00 GMT
Good point but you are moving the thread to another theme..
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Post by Harerton Dourado - HJG on Nov 1, 2018 11:38:19 GMT
My experience is that FS9 and FSX will only run on Windows 10 if you install a "No CD" crack, because Windows 10 removed the secdrv.sys driver required by the DRM used on their discs (along with the discs of many other older Windows games). George I bought the latest FSX from Steam just to avoid some incompatibilities with the most recent Windows versions. It used to run ok. It´s been more than a year since my last (simulated) flight though...
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Post by Falcon on Nov 1, 2018 15:17:12 GMT
I did not have to install a NO CD crack with fsx. Not running FS9 so I guess that is what you are saying. Have no problems, even freeware weather and stuff works great, you just have to be aware of the compatibility issue, but windws 10 finds it for you.
Falcon aka Denny
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