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Post by Tarasdad on Mar 24, 2008 1:53:03 GMT
Well, the porpoising problem that many had in FSX is now occurring in my FS2004 707-320. I tried the same "fix" that seems to work in FSX (100FPM during last 500 feet of climb/descent, then activating ALT HOLD at the exact altitude) but it doesn't stay "fixed." As soon as the next INS adjustment occurs the altitude varies by 20-40 feet, then the AP starts a +/- 500-1000FPM adjustment cycle causing a +/- 100 foot oscillation around the chosen altitude. The only way to damp it is to turn off ALT HOLD and try the whole darn process again.
I love HJG's 707/720 series, I really do. They are among my favorite aircraft available for FS. However, this problem is enough to remove any fun factor from the aircraft and relegate it to "the hell with this" status in a hurry. Sorry if this is a bit blunt, but when all I'm trying to do is make a flight from JFK to Heathrow to try to relax it's more than a bit frustrating to have to baby an AP that should be doing its job. I've got enough other frustrations (including a back that is giving me pure hell) to worry about.
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on Mar 24, 2008 3:40:08 GMT
Hi T. Not being rude, but I seem to remember that it was in fact only one that had this problem in FSX, none of us could reproduced it no matter how hard we tried. As I'm strictly on FSX, I cannot guide you here, but I'm sure that if it was a general problem with our aircraft, I'm pretty sure the number of downloads would radically be reduced. In fact I'm pretty certain that if I say over thousand has downloaded one or more of our aircraft I'm not totally off. So just don't be too frustrated if it turns out that the problem doesn't lie in the model, but maybe in your particular setup... ;-)
By the way, I just came to think if it had something to do with using some kind of joystick??? I don't use joystick so I can't verify this, but maybe some of those that does can..... worth a try...maybe.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Mar 24, 2008 7:51:42 GMT
I confirm I'm "NOT" experiencing porpoising with any of our aircraft .... except as described in the following link .... tonymadgehjg.proboards98.com/index.cgi?board=questionsonfsxandhjg&action=display&thread=1667In particular read the 5th popsting in the above linkIn this case porpoising occurred through my own careless use of ALT HLD during AP controlled flight. I quickly learned how to avoid it by being more "PRECISE" .... and I've never yet had another occurrence. I notice you state the problem is occurring "AGAIN" .... therefore implying you weren't experiencing it previously. There's been no B707 FDE change since August. There was a gauges/core files during December .... but .... nothing was changed per that update could impact AP performance. I stand by Dan here ! I can't replicate the problem at all .... except per the careless I describe in the above posting and which I now take care to avoid. However .... I can't speak for what may or may not occur as the result of INS use during AP controlled flight. Whether or not that imposes any difference I know not. I only fly VOR to VOR type navigation. I've never actually used the INS. Even so .... given the number of downloads and folk obviously using these files I don't immediately recall any but the one report regarding porpoising first brought to our attention during early December 2007 .... as discussed within the above link.Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by kov on Mar 25, 2008 20:43:58 GMT
I experience the same in all 707's and 720's in FS2004 since the gauge update from december, with or without INS. But only when using alt hold. So i use the V/S wheel to put the V/S to exactly 0 ft/min at the desired altitude without touching the alt hold switch. This method leads to a stable level flight without pitch oscillations.
Regards
Jakov
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Mar 26, 2008 5:19:54 GMT
WELL .... you shouldn't ! I personally tested and passed those gauges fit for service .... on the basis of many weeks of successful testing on more than 1 PC system prior to their release. I continue to observe "PERFECTLY STABLE FLIGHT" at all altitude levels and in AP controlled flight. In fact the only way I can generate any degree of porpoising at all is as discussed within the following posting .... tonymadgehjg.proboards98.com/index.cgi?board=questionsonfsxandhjg&action=display&thread=1667In particular read the 5th popsting in the above link .... it's the same posting as aboveWhen you installed the new gauges did you also have FSUIPC installed at that time ? I wonder whether or not if you temporarily uninstall FSUIPC .... then reinstall it again you might observe any change. In doing this be sure to shutdown/start FS so it can detect that a change has occurred .... both upon first removing FSUIPC .... then again too upon reinstalling it. Have at least "MINIMUM FSUIPC DEFAULTS" activated when you reinstall it. What can happen is that whenever a gauge change is made .... FSUIPC won't recognize the new gauge date. I wonder if this could be what's happening in your case. Try this and see .... is all I can recommend, but again, except as posted in the above link, I can't duplicate your problem at all ! Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by kov on Mar 26, 2008 8:24:35 GMT
That with FSUIPC is a good idea. I had it installed all the time. But i can live with the "problem" because i have this V/S wheel workaround.
Regards
Jakov
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Post by skyking on Mar 26, 2008 8:40:09 GMT
I had this "problem" until I "learned" how to use the thumb wheel on the Auto Pilot. First, when climbing or descending, I do the last 1000 feet at 500FPM. (The AIM used to call for that years ago; don't know if it still does.) Then at or very near the desired altitude, place the (mouse) arrow over the thumb wheel until there is no '+' or '-' showing (near the center of the wheel) and left click once. Altitude holds near perfect, even during turns.
Try it, you'll like it!
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Post by Tarasdad on Mar 26, 2008 9:13:37 GMT
Doesn't work the same for the 707, at least not that I've noticed. You just adjust the VS until it's at zero. Have never seen the "neutral" position in the center of the VS wheel on the 707 AP.
I tried a flight in the 707-120 with the 1959 panel and it was much easier to get it settled at altitude. However, it will still go into the same oscillation if you miss the altitude by one pixel. When it was on it was rock solid, with nothing causing it to start porpoising. I completed a 2.4 hour flight from KIWA to KHOU without any problems whatsoever.
The only differences I can think of is that this aircraft doesn't have the INS, and that I wasn't using Active Sky tonight.
Another thought - we may be running into hardware specific issues. I used to work for a game company as an in-house beta tester. When we were testing a game we had a minimum of 20 different hardware/OS configurations to try and kill as many bugs as we could. It's impossible, since there are literally millions of possible hardware combinations. This issue could easily be machine specific.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Mar 26, 2008 9:33:38 GMT
Try anyway "KOV" .... the problem your case could even possibly be as simple as that. These are very real possibilities .... and precisely why I state the following within each of the aircraft type "PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES" .... The last sentence might pretty will sum things up ! Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by skyking on Mar 26, 2008 15:32:56 GMT
OK.....I just checked my 707 (-320). Forgot the Auto Pilot was slightly different. Anyway, are you using the ALT Switch? It has an ON/OFF position. Maybe that'll help you.
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Post by skyking on Mar 26, 2008 19:10:03 GMT
Ooops.....just re-read your initial post and see you DID use the Altitude Hold Switch. So erase my previous. Don't know what to tell ya now.
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Post by Tarasdad on Mar 26, 2008 20:17:09 GMT
The issue for me is that I had never experienced any porpoising at all until the latest batch of panel revisions. Unfortunately I don't have archived copies of the old versions, or I'd for sure switch back to one. No other aircraft in my inventory of several hundred has this issue, so it's a bit frustrating that my single favorite aircraft series is now causing problems for me.
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Post by skyking on Mar 26, 2008 20:43:29 GMT
Well, I sure don't understand it. These latest panels are the first Boeing ones I've gotten from here. I had the problem at first until I "found" the ALT HOLD switch. So.....don't know what to tell you. Maybe a re-install? Mine work just fine. I'm using XP-Pro, if that matters.
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Post by muletrain on Mar 27, 2008 1:32:36 GMT
Tarasdad...if you decrease your vertical velocity gradually; stabilize at your altitude with a zero VVI and DO NOT turn on the ALT HOLD...will the porpoise begin? If I do not apply ALT HOLD, my 707-320 flies without porpoise. That technique kept my blood pressure within limits! :-) No FSUIPC here; FSX and XP Pro
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Mar 27, 2008 5:37:38 GMT
"TARASDAD" .... what are the dates of the 3 B707.GAU files you're currently using ?
The last B707/720 panel revisions were in August 2007 .... which also corresponded with gauges/core files, and FDE changes too.
Also .... what are the dates of the AIR.FILES for each the affected aircraft you are using ?
There was a B707/720 panels gauges/core files update in December (no FDE change though). The only changes to these files were the addition of call outs and a revision of other flight deck system advisories. So far as I was advised .... there were no changes made to the AP or anything else that might affect flight stability.
Have you tried the FSUIPC uninstall/reinstall suggestion I made earlier within this thread ?
I'm sure people must be getting tired of reading the same from me in relation to this alleged problem, but, I must state what I must state .... which is .... "I'm not experiencing any of this porpoising and nor can I replicate the problem .... except through my own carelessness with AP ALT HLD use".
Apart from the above information requests I'm now clean out of any further intelligent advice.
Mark C AKL/NZ
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