sas caravelle 1 panel

[electra]

Hi,  I have a couple questions regarding using the sas panel for the caravelle 1.  First of all, I get this annoying red light that says "cabin low pr".  I have the pressure dial set to 4,500 feet and the AC switches on.  Still the light will not go off, and the cabin pressure shows no pressure.  Most of the switches below the altitude pressure dial appear to be dummy switches.  I see no information on how to pressurize this aircraft other than setting the dial.  I increased it to 5,000 feet and that did nothing to turn off that red warning light, neither did increasing the pressure flow to max.  I was cruising at 28,000 feet.  Anyone know how to fix this?

My other question is, there seems to be no gauge to set your initial trim setting.  The reference says to "check the gauge".  What gauge?  How?  I have looked at every gauge on every panel and found no tick marks to indicate your initial trim setting.

I have temporarily hash marked out that red pressure warning gauge since it is not critical to FS flying and  at this time seems to be no way to turn it off by pressurizing the cabin, either with using cold start or even with the "easy start".  Anyway, controlling the pressurization is the job of the co pilot, not the pilot in command.  Its just a "make work, busy body" gauge not critical to FS.

Oh, and one other note.  I notice that if I load the plane from the external view, and use Control + E, then the tail stairs and the front stairs will appear.  However, once I am inside the aircraft, I can only make the tail stairs appear by using the Control + E.  I have not found a way to make the front side airstairs appear.  Anyone know how to operate this?

cheers,

Mike

[Klaus Hullermann]

I don't have the Caravelle I installed in my FS9, but I have the other series (III, VI-N, VI-R, 10R) installed and their panels come with a docs-folder which explains quite well how to operate the panel and where which switch is. You can jump to specific parts like Electricals, Hydraulics, cabin pressurization, etc.

I'm sure this will clear your questions/problems with the Caravelle-panel (which are fantastic) and aircraft. If you still have questions after reading/exploring the documentation, then there's still this forum.

Klaus

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Bear in mind everyone HJG did not produce the CARAVELLE simulations or their panels.

We were asked to produce the sound packs for these simulations though .... and we were also authorized to edit the FDE's for each and which is why what we offer "HERE" flies "a bit better" that the original AFG releases uploaded elsewhere.

In regard to your queries ....

I get this annoying red light that says "cabin low pr". I have the pressure dial set to 4,500 feet and the AC switches on. Still the light will not go off ....

.... I increased it to 5,000 feet and that did nothing to turn off that red warning light

I don't recall ever seeing that lamp illuminate, but then again, using any of the CARAVELLE's I've always set Cabin Press pressure setting to around 8,500 FT .... so .... both of your settings may still be on the low side hence the indication you're seeing.

ALSO .... whilst the "early CARAVELLE's" could cruise at FL280 .... and higher .... "FL250" (as per my forum based flying guide recommendation) is a more than adequate cruising altitude for the types of routes (European inter-city and regional destinations) these aircraft most often flew.

I see no information on how to pressurize this aircraft other than setting the dial

Should be referenced within Benoit's GAURANT's PDF manual which is included with the Panel files.

I did compile the following-linked and "very basic" forum based manual for the CARAVELLE's ....

tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/2939/caravelle-panel-installation-handling-notes

.... but I've never compiled a full and thorough manual for these simulations (as I have for our other simulations) due the the considerable differences that exist between each Panel/aircraft type version. I've always considered Benoit's manuals to be "quite adequate" .... albeit there "is" a lot to be read/taken in.

there seems to be no gauge to set your initial trim setting ....

.... The reference says to "check the gauge". What gauge? How?

I presume you're referring to Benoit's PDF formatted Panel Manual "included within the Panel".

There "IS" a TRIM related gauge in each of the CARAVELLE panels. It's located in a different position on some Panels .... and as a pop-up.

What Benoit did for AFG is produce panels in accordance with "airline specific configurations/customizations" (the CARAVELLE FD is quite busy in regards to instruments so in order to tryn' represent everything for FS, and in a readable manner too, Benoit had no other option than to make some of these appear within pop-up sub panels) .... hence both gauge positions and standard differ between some panel versions. Again .... such should be referenced within Benoit GAURANT's PDF manuals and which are "customized for most panel versions". When reading these PDF manuals also bear in mind that whilst the information provided is quite concise .... English "is not" Benoit's first language !

I notice that if I load the plane from the external view, and use Control + E, then the tail stairs and the front stairs will appear. However, once I am inside the aircraft, I can only make the tail stairs appear by using the Control + E.

That's correct in regard to the ground equipment and ventral stairs animations.

In regard to DOOR 1L .... from memory I think the brakes need to be locked "ON", the Anti-Collision Light selected "OFF", and the engines also need to be "SHUT-DOWN" too before this animation can work.


It's been a while since I've used any of the CARAVELLE's. I'll need to give myself a basic refresher course .... before reporting further, BUT, it may not be possible for me to do so before the end of this weekend. Got a lot of private commitments at the moment.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[electra]

Thanks for the help and tips.

I've been waiting years to fly this thing, and so last night I started the engine start procedures.  There is a video on YouTube  but it is 10 years old on Caravelle cockpit, startup, taxi, and take off procedures, and a second video with flying, approach, and landing procedures.  The videos are by a user named "AirStef".  I think they may be slightly out date with the current panels, which was throwing me off.

I solved the pressurization issue.  The anti-ice system must be on, and the pressure controller set. The video says to only 4,500 feet, which is way to low.  I set it to 6,000 for a FL29 flight, and then on take off as directed turn off the AC.  Once you have established climb, you can turn on the AC, but you must be below 95 on the power level setting in order for pressurization to take place.  I was right on 95, and it was not allowing any pressurization to happen.  I think its a typo in the documents.  I climbed at a full load at a setting of 92 and 1,500 fpm and everything was dandy.  I do believe that warning light will come on if you exceed the maximum pressure on the hull, if so, just increase the dial.  I know on modern day 737s they always use a setting of 8,000 feet.  I fly pre '63 in FS, so I don't know what they set it at.  I do remember in the 1960s a lot more ear popping and ear aches from planes that you get today.

I found the trim gauge, its odd, not like anything else I have on any other aircraft.  I know the docs recommend a setting of 4 degrees, but the aircraft will even take off nicely right on the money with a 0 degree trim setting.  Sort of like the Comet.

I would like to have an OAT on the main panel, I do not see one.  And I moved the clock underneath the VOR indicator as I'm not fond of a floating clock.  I wanted to increase only the sounds of the seat/smoking switches, but since they are a gauge file and not an XML file I can't get to sounds file.  I've done a computer search for the sound of the chimes and can't seem to locate it.

I'll play around and see what I can do to get that front door and airstairs to appear.  I will use that at primary airports, and use the tail stairs at the secondary airports.

Overall, its a very nice little plane that taxis, flys, takes off and lands as nice as you could ever want, but like the Viscount and Vanguard you will just have to spend a day or two on it and get familiarized.  It is an odd aircraft, but not nearly as strange as the Vanguard with the McKay panel.  That thing is just plain strange.

[electra]

By the way, I love Mark's avatar. That man looks like a neighbor of mine on the next block, whom we all call "angry Fred". He walks the neighborhood with his small white dog, and brings a small spiral notebook and rights down the address of every house that has a few weeds in the yard, and then he goes home and calls the city and makes complaints, and then the city sends us warning letters. But here is the thing - his house is loaded with weeds, and he lets his dog poop on everyone's yard. He never smiles, he just scowls at people like your avatar! Oh well, there is one on every block, I suppose.

And "over-pressurization' will cause the red light to come on. So it was that old YouTube video how to fly the Caravelle that was causing the problem.

[electra]

Solved the airstairs issue.  They are not dependent on whether the beacon or nav lights are on and off.  The rear stairs are independent and operate from the familiar Control + E command.  To activate the front door and air stairs, with the engines off (I presume), you must have the parking brake fully on.  Now once that is done, bring up that little panel with the red lights on it for the doors.  Clicking on the red "Cabin" light, will open and close the front door.  Clicking on the "Parking Brakes" red light will bring up the airstairs.  They are independent from one another.  So if you pulled into an jetbridge, you can just set the parking brake, and then click only on the "Cabin" light, and the door will open and close.  This is good for modern users who may have jet bridges.  If you are parked at the apron, you can click on any order of these lights you wish.  It is possible to have the airstairs showing, but the door closed.  Of course all of this I now find out is on page 56 of the documents, the one page I did not see.  Of course.

This is also the only FS clock I have ever run across that must be clicked on to start the hands moving.  If I recall correctly, some people have a reaction from blinking red lights and it may cause seizures, and perhaps the same thing can happen if you see the ticking of a second hand?  I don't know.

Once you get familiar, this is really a very nice aircraft.  I would say payware quality (I don't fly with virtual cockpits).  I also added the side cockpit views to all my Caravelles, and used them again for the Convair 880 and 990 panels.  That angled quarter window is closest to the Convair, and its better than having this naked, open feeling looking left or right.

cheers to all

Mike

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Whilst you were checking and compiling all that I was doing "THIS" (below) .... so .... I'll present it regardless. What I have to say here is "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MARK"/from the Benoit's GAURANT's manual and confirmed per my own following illustrated tests of today ....


Didn't expect to be able to look at this today but found (made) time to do so for you

First thing I need to say is all of these details are actually compiled into the Panel Manual .... which accompanies each panel version .... and be aware that each Panel version differs in its gauge placement and standard.

The index for each feature of this/these panel/s is located within PP1 the Panel Manual .... which accompanies each panel version.

Only correction I make to my earlier commentary (above) is the Manual/s that accompany each Panel files aren't supplied in PDF form. They're in the form of individual documents contained within a "DOCUMENTS" folder accompanying each Panel folder


BUT ANYWAY ....


Carefully note each the following details in response to your queries ....


1. TRIM: There "is" a trim gauge (in fact there's 3 of of them .... composed of 3 separate gauges for Elevator, Aileron, and Rudder indications.

PLEASE NOTE: Using the SAS panel (which I assume you're using/which you should be using for the SAS CARAVELLE I/III simulations) these Trim gauges appear within the "vacant space at the bottom extreme left portion of the Main Panel .... "after left mouse clicking within tyis particular vacant space as follows ....

DEFAULT VACANT SPACE


TRIM GAUGES


- Top gauge is Elevator Trim
- Middle gauge is Aileron Trim
- Bottom gauge uis Rudder Trim



To select and read the Elevator Trim Setting. Use "END" keyboard command to set Trim Up .... and use "HOME" keyboard command to set Trim Down .... then note the numerical Trim indication appearing beside the green band and in response to manual selection. At MGW a ET setting of "3" is recommended in conjunction with 2X notches of Flap.


2. VENTRAL STAIRS & DOOR 1L AND STAIRS ANIMATION: The Ventral Boarding Stairs (primary exit on CARAVELLE aircraft) animation functions (opens/closes) per SHIFT + E keyboard commands ....



DOOR 1 AND STAIRS ANIMATIONS function via the "DOOR CONTROL SUB PANEL (commanded into view using "SHIFT + 2" keyboard commands) ....





Depress the bottom left red "CABIN" button (it will illuminate) to engage the open DOOR 1L .... and depress the red "PARKING BRAKES" button (it will illuminate also) to engage the DOOR 1L STAIRS ....





PLEASE NOTE: The Parking Brakes must be selected "ON" or the DOOR 1L and STAIRS animations will not function.

Select the same 2 "DOOR CONTROL SUB PANEL" buttons to close the open DOOR 1L and STAIRS animations.

PLEASE NOTE: These animations are presented in PP 56 among the Panel Manual documents accompanying this particular panel (SAS) version.


3. PRESSURIZATION & AIR CONDITIONING:. PLEASE NOTE: These features are discussed within PP 31 and PP 32 among the same Panel Manual documents accompanying this particular panel version.

I recommend setting this gauge to "8,500 FT" for FL250 cruise.




Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Once you get familiar, this is really a very nice aircraft

Esa and Ari KHAILANEN, Benoit GAURANT, and our very own Mike MONCE and Benoit PLAMONDON, each did a fantastic job of making these CARAVELLE simulations what they now are .... aided by those among us (past and present) whom have produced textures for these great simulations too. It's been a while since I've flown them .... but .... having to do so for the sake of what I've replied here today (actually it was "a welcome distraction" since I didn't have to fly at all in order to reply today) reminded me "just how well these simulations really fly".

I love Mark's avatar. That man looks like a neighbor of mine on the next block, whom we all call "angry Fred" ....
there is one on every block

I'm definitely "NOT" the one on that block

I use that AVATAR to "keep idiots at distance"

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[electra]

After some familiarization, and practice with the aircraft, it is a wonderful thing to fly.  As far as it performs in FS, I will give it a TEN!  I have dozens of propliners, turboprops, jets and except for the Caravelle, the only other aircraft I would give a ten to are Manfred Jahn's Super Constellation/Starliners and the Greg Pepper DC series.  The Caravelle has the best feeling of taxi and take off of any plane I have ever flown in FS.  This is also the only plane in FS I have ever seen that has the ability to adjust the sound levels of the panel.  I only wish other aircraft had that same capability.

I found the best thing to do was to put the documents on my second computer and use them as a reference when learning the Caravelle.  I don't have a printer to print them out, and it was impossible to have them on display with FS at the same time on one computer.

What was throwing me off was that outdated video on how to fly the Caravelle on YouTube.  I now see that many mistakes were made in it.

An interesting note.  I was reading that Kenny Friedkin, owner of PSA had inquired about buying 5 Caravelles for PSA.  But the factory could not promise him a guaranteed delivery date, so he came back from France empty handed.  Instead he went to Lockheed and bought Electras.

Thanks to all for help and patience.

cheers,

Mike

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Kenny Friedkin, owner of PSA had inquired about buying 5 Caravelles for PSA. But the factory could not promise him a guaranteed delivery date, so he came back from France empty handed. Instead he went to Lockheed and bought Electras.

A lesser known detail in the CARAVELLE history is ....

DOUGLAS AIRCRAFT COMPANY entered into an agreement with SUD EST AVIATION to market the CARAVELLE within the USA (your PSA claim would predate this by few years though) .... and would also undertake building these aircraft "under license" too should any customer place an order sufficiently large to be economically viable or in the event that SUD EST facilities in Toulouse, France, should be unable to cope with increased orders. This agreement also involved SUD EST marketing DOUGLAS jetliners within French speaking territories around the world too. Although short-lived this cooperation arrangement led to the development of a single CARAVELLE VIIA which supported the titles of both manufacturers and was also powered by US produced GE CJ805-23 aft-fan turbo-fan engines as follows (painted by Erik INGRAM) ....



It was originally intended that this aircraft would be further refined and developed into the “Americanized” CARAVELLE 10A .... which generated interest from TWA but whom was unable to commit to such an order due to its late 1950's/early 1960's (and to some extent Howard HUGHES induced) financial crisis. No other "US interest or orders" were forthcoming though .... beyond a UNITED AIR LINES order for 20 CARAVELLE VIR's, produced by SUD EST at its Toulouse, France, based facility and which were delivered to the airline between May 1961 and February 1962 .... the last of which remained in service with the airline until March 1972 .... and which also included options on a further 20 aircraft but which were never taken up. DOUGLAS therefore declined to renew its agreement with SUD EST when it expired during late 1961. However throughout 1962 DOUGLAS worked on its own rear-fuselage mounted engine design for what was destined to become the short-haul DC-9 .... "using technical information gained throughout its brief CARAVELLE courtship". The first DC-9 (N9DC) performed its maiden flight on February 25th 1965 .... albeit that Mr DOUGLAS Snr's comment during the aircraft's roll out ceremony .... "the DC-9 is the CARAVELLE" .... enraged SUD EST and likely became one of the justifications for France later pursuing its aviation development ventures independently (the Anglo-French CONCORDE being a notable exception though) and prior to dawning of the AIRBUS era.

The CARAVELLE did well though for a non-US produced jetliner. It first flew during 1955. Entered production during 1958. Entered commercial service during 1959 .... with SAS (a CARAVELLE 1A ... LN-KLH "Finn Viking" .... later converted to a CARAVELL III). And remained in production until 1972 when the last of some 282 airframes (covering all variants) was delivered to AIR INTER (a SUPER 12 F-BTOC) during April 1973. The last certified airworthy example of which remained in service with WALTAIR (a CARAVELLE SUPER 10B3 9Q-CPI) in the DRC until 2005.

Between November 1987 and June 1989 I was able to get up close and personal with the type at AKL/NZ .... in the form of AIR CALEDONIE INTERNATIONAL's CARAVELE SUPER 10B3 F-GEPC ....


PHOTO: Mark R.CRANSTON

.... and CARAVELLE 10B1R F-GFBA ....

What was throwing me off was that outdated video on how to fly the Caravelle on YouTube. I now see that many mistakes were made in it.

I can't relate to the video you mention, but, the best rule of thumb is rely upon nothing else but the data recommended within my "Basic Flying Guides" posted here. As I mentioned above .... HJG was authorized to edit/further improve the CARAVELLE FDE's beyond the status of their original AFG releases (for the CARAVELLE I/III through VIR series .... everything released following these (the CARAVELLE 10R through 10B1 was dane through HJG exclusively and their FDE's benrfitted by default .... and we do also have the SUPER 10B3 too but there's still an ongoing problem with it that's delaying its release). The data stated within the flying guides posted here is "precisely what I've recorded during our pre-release testing" and is therefore what we recommend. Bear in mind also that although these CARAVELLE simulations are known to function in FSX we've never been cleared to market them for that FS version. Therefore these simulations each remain "FS2004 COMPATIBLE" (as are their sound packs too) .... so far as we're concerned.


Mark C
AKL/NZ

[walterleo]

Hi friends:

The Caravelles are really a gem in HJG "hangar". Besides the very good information coming with every version one can learn something more from Niels Alegren, who rebuilt a Caravelle III cockpit to a real working simulator.

www.flycaravelle.com/

Kind regards

Walter