Boeing 737-200 Takeoff Configuration Warning

[biggiraffe]

Hello,

I've been experiencing a takeoff configuration warning during part of my takeoff role.  I'm flying the "PAX version P&W JT8D-7 1968-70 production" (since that is what Air California used).  With a gross weight of 95,000 pounds, flaps set at 10, and the pitch trim at 5, the horn begins sounding shortly after the roll begins (EPR passing through 1.70 - 1.80), and stops as the simulation nears rotation speed. 

Besides flap position and possibly pitch trim, what other settings feed into the takeoff configuration warning?  (I have searched through the manual but wasn't able to find ths).

Thank you,

Kurt

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Need to verify you're using the recommended TM2 V1.25 (with V1.26 update) panel .... and not the later V1.30 (with V1.31 and V1.32 update).

We support the V1.25/V1.26 files only .... at the moment. There's some differences among the other later file versions which aren't entirely consistent with the panel version we recommend.

The recommended panel can only be used in FS2004 .... but not FSX.

Need to know which WINDOWS OS your using. WIN XP, WIN 7, and WIN 10 OS's should all be fine for the recommended panel version and the simulations we offer but later OS's may (possibly) be "off the cards" .... we can't advise in relation to WIN 11 etc and more-so given it was never "intended" to support FS2004.

Might be helpful to know if your situation's occurring using default FS scenery .... or add-on scenery .... or both. If the alarm stops at "a point" during TO then the issue may be scenery related.


For the "B732 JT8D-7" version (only) .... TO power shouldn't be set in excess of EPR 1.98 (I relate to EPR as it's the more easily read (than N1 and N2) engine parameter in the recommended panel). Flaps should be set at 10* .... and a roughly +5* trim setting should be more than sufficient for TO at/near MGW, so, if you've done all that then you've made no basic configurational errors.


Only advice I can provide (at the moment and through not ever experiencing your issue) is as follows ....


- Check either the flaps or trim setting haven't drifted (unnoticed) back to their neutral settings. The flaps won't work unless both the electrical and hydraulics systems are correctly configured .... and in the event of a misconfiguration of either such "WILL" trigger that alarm.

- Check the AP is "OFF" prior to commencing your TO roll .... otherwise it could cause trim to drift way off the scale, but, you'd sense this immediately upon rotation of course.

- Review "SECTION 3" of the manual (probably SECTIONS 3.00, 3.04, and 3.05 specifically as the remainder of this section relates to APU/engine startup/shutdown procedures). You may inadvertently have a system "OFF that should be "ON" .... or vice versa .... although I can't for the moment think of any system which might trigger that alarm .... "with the exception of both electrical and hydraulics systems and in relation to flap and trim settings".

- "DO NOT" load the default FS CESSNA (or any other default FS aircraft type) prior to loading your B732 of choice/intent. Loading a default FS aircraft does (from my experience at least) seems to cause some panel systems to be misconfigured beyond the TM2 B732 panel default settings. When starting FS go straight to your B732 of choice/intent.

since that is what Air California used

Just curious: What AIR CALIFORNIA's are you using because we haven't released our 3 variations .... yet ....
tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/thread/10432/time-west

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[biggiraffe]

Hello!

I followed the recommended panel installations which included V1.25 and 1.26. This evening I re-checked to make sure I had done this correctly, and all seems in order.

My computer has Windows 10 Home, and I run FS2004.

I have FS Global 2010 running within my FS2004. In addition, I have various CalClassic scenery. I have also made big changes to San Jose (KSJC) and San Francisco (KSFO) using Airport Design Editor.

As far as I can tell, I have the systems set correctly for takeoff. All generators and hydraulics are on line, Flap gauge shows "10" for the setting, pitch trim about 5, spoilers retracted.

--------------
In doing more testing, both at KSJC and KSFO, it doesn't matter which direction I roll. The horn begins sounding before the airspeed indicator starts showing anything. It sounds from 1 to 4 times during the takeoff roll, then is quiet. What seems odd is that I started a takeoff in SFO and then stopped prior to reaching 80 kts, after the horn sounded. Then I started another takeoff from that location, still on the runway (We can do that at SFO in a 737!), and this time the horn did not sound at all. But, when the alarm does sound, it is always quiet by the time we reach rotation speed.

Anyway, I'd class this as a "minor irritant" that won't stop me from flying. Still, I'd like to figure out why it does this for differing periods of time.

-----------------
About Air California, I don't actually have their colors, yet, and I'm flying the United Airlines instead. But my long-term plan is to have Air California since most of my 737 flying will be within California (my old stomping grounds). I didn't realize you were already working this airline until tonight, and I'm quite happy!

Thank you,
Best regards,
Kurt

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

I've performed some checks/re-checks too .... just for added comfort.

The only way I can trigger the horn is as follows ....


- "EXCESSIVE" trim set .... in this case the indicator was purposely set almost at the base of the green trim band/range.

- "ZERO" flaps (or insufficient) set .... when power is set for TO (the recommended FLAP 10 setting is 4 knotches of on the gauge).

- "SPOILERS EXTENDED" .... when power's set for T/O.


I wouldn't mind betting your experience could (possibly) be "scenery generated" .... maybe the simulation's floating across the scenery/RWY at some point during TO and due to an add-on scenery glitch.

Can you try T/O from an "unedited, non-addon. and just default FS supplied scenery" RWY .... and see what happens ?

I'd class this as a "minor irritant" that won't stop me from flying. Still, I'd like to figure out why it does this for differing periods of time.

It'd annoy me .... because I just like to get/have things running right. Just wish I could do so for you.

I, myself, have very little FS add-on scenery installed in FS2004 .... and aren't able to generate any problem .... at least not "when everything else's correctly configured".

With everything correctly configured I can't trigger the horn at all .... except in the case of each of the 3 above conditions.

I didn't realize you were already working this airline until tonight, and I'm quite happy!

You should be able to enjoy them before Christmas .... hopefully without any bloody horns though

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[biggiraffe]

Hello!

Tomorrow, I will try a few runs with the scenery add-on's turned "off", and see what happens. A scenery-generated error would explain the differing lengths of time the horn triggers.

I was thinking it would be many months before we'd see Air California, so hearing it is likely they're out before Christmas is really awesome! By the way, I have painted Air California for an AI 737, and agree (from the thread) it's extremely difficult to get that nose "sunburst" to be precise. The photos of the upcoming textures look GREAT!

Best regards,
Kurt

[biggiraffe]

Hi,

It appears my issue is related to scenery. I've switched back and forth between FS Global 2010 and FS2004 default, and the problem stays with the FS Global. Sometimes the horn sounds once, other times it sounds 4 times, but still is quiet by the time I rotate. And at some places I tried, the horn doesn't sound at all. I'll just be aware this is a peculiarity of my setup, from now on.

Oh, by the way, I tried to deliberately open the spoilers for takeoff, so I could hear the alarm, but they automatically close when throttle setting gets above a certain level. Even when I pressed they key to extend them again, they immediately retracted.

Thank you again,
Kurt

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

It appears my issue is related to scenery

Thanks for you update Kurt .... I was sure that'd be the case.

Oh, by the way, I tried to deliberately open the spoilers for takeoff, so I could hear the alarm, but they automatically close when throttle setting gets above a certain level. Even when I pressed they key to extend them again, they immediately retracted.

Probably a protection built into the panel/simulation, so, Spoilers can't normally remain deployed during TO .... and therefore auto-retract upon power advanced if already extended. During my re-checking yesterday though I seemed to be able to cause the Spoilers to remain extended (hence I triggered the horn) .... at least the Spoiler Lever appeared to remain engaged on the CP sub panel in my case.

Thanks for your reliable feedback

That sort of information potentially aids more people than whom care to ask any question in the future

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[biggiraffe]

Hi,

You're welcome on the feedback -- And thank you so much for all the effort you put into replying to questions! (Also, all the effort you and the team put into giving us such high-quality, accurate aircraft to fly). On this forum, when we ask questions, we get genuine help!

I tried out the spoilers, again, during takeoff roll and my aircraft retracts them every time, whether I use the "/" key or pull the spoiler handle with the mouse. But that's fine with me since I've been known to hit that key and accidentally extend them as I turn onto the runway, and had to figure out "what in the world the horn is about" during roll.

Best regards,
Kurt

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

No problem Kurt. That's what we do here (try to). If we release a simulation we "HAVE TO" be able support it. And the only way we can do that properly is by knowing/understanding it/each intimately .... and despite the fact odd things can sometimes happen on some systems, and among other installed files too (some issues become "unique" to people in this particular regard) and which we ourselves never confront during testing

I tried out the spoilers, again, during takeoff roll and my aircraft retracts them every time

That's precisely what (I think) should happen .... the way the panel/Spoiler function is engineered to/supposed to work (by my interpretation), so, God knows what I did yesterday to trick/get around that protection

Sounds like you "FULLY OPERATIONAL" then .... save for some (possibly) scenery induced influences.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[biggiraffe]

Yes, I am fully operational and have a better understanding about the alarm. Something I've learned is that, if I do leave the flaps up, the alarm will sound shortly after the EPR passes through some level, before the aircraft is hardly moving. When it is the nuisance alarm, the airplane is rolling for a bit.

Everone's computer and system is a bit different. But, hey, even on real airplanes, some will show anomalies that are peculiar to that one airframe. I learned about that working as Flight Controls Engineer on the C-5 Galaxy.

Thanks again!
Kurt

[biggiraffe]

Hi again!

More about this configuration warning horn -- I've noticed it is associated with turning the nosewheel off-center by using the "left" key press. For some reason it is always the left, never happens to the right, and also won't happen if I use the joystick to turn the rudder. (I have the nosewheel and rudder locked together on the keypress). As soon as I center the nosewheel again, the horn stops. Once the airplane is passing through about 70 knots, the horn doesn't sound at all with the key presses. And, it happens with both regular FS2004 scenery and with the FSGlobal.

Just "interesting", does not affect my ability to control the airplane! (And I REALLY LIKE this 737-200 airplane!)
Best regards,
Kurt

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

I was flying the B732 just yesterday in order to produce some more PR stuff, as I've been doing over the past few weeks too, and all (but the very minor issues I've related within the "KNOW ISSUES" section of our manual) continues to perform fine .... "in my case".

I've noticed it is associated with turning the nosewheel off-center by using the "left" key press. For some reason it is always the left, never happens to the right, and also won't happen if I use the joystick to turn the rudder.

I use subtle joystick twist too (for ground steering and rudder deflection) .... then equally subtle left/right stick (for bank/roll control and forward/back stick for pitch control when airborne and prior to engaging the AP).

I never use keyboard commands for either control input/s .... with the exception of "very subtle" tapping of the "END"/Trim Up and "HOME"/Trim Down keyboard commands (only with the AP "ELEVATOR" channel momentarily disengaged) in order set, and maintain my desired ROC/ROD (forgot to mention this earlier today though it is mentioned in my manual)

For the life of me though I just "cannot" replicate your horn issue .... either during the few years of slow pre-release developmental analysis or since. No editing was applied by us to the recommended panel because it's not ours to be able to edit, so, nothing's been adjusted there by us there .... and .... none of the FDE editing we applied has any relationship, at all, to control inputs (ground or air .... since "none" were determined to be necessary) and that could trigger the horn.

In fact the only situations during which I've ever been able to trigger the TO Config Horn are .... (1) upon throttle advance and only if/when the flaps aren't set .... (2) if excessive (and possibly insufficient) elevator trim setting is selected prior to TO .... and (3) if the Spoilers are deployed and high power applied for TO .... each being perfectly normal horn activation scenarios.

Sorry I can't offer you a solution Kurt since an opinion can't be arrived at "until we can first generate the same issue ourselves .... and hopefully then resolve or otherwise comment more intelligently in regard to".

"IF" .... your issue has its foundation in the panel/gauges suite though (it shouldn't by default though) then we're likely not going to be able to do anything about it at all .... again by virtue of the fact the panel's not ours to be able to edit.

Just "ODD" that you're experiencing this .... and I'm not .... and so far as I'm aware my other trusted tester isn't reporting this particular issue either.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Kurt ....

The following thoughts crossed my mind .... haven't re-read this thread to check whether or not I've already mentioned then .... no time today


1. Want to check you're using the "HJG supplied FDE" (both AIR and CFG data) and not any of the options (including that for the originally CANTU released B732 simulations supplied with the TM2 panel). Our FDE suite is "entirely different" and supersedes every other FDE option supplied with the TM2 simulation. Use only the FDE supplied with the HJG offered base packs .... and nothing else.

2. Want to check you're using the "basic TM2 PANEL.CFG only" and not any of the other alternative and systems related TM2 PANEL.CFG options. Our entire manual .... and advice .... is centered around the "basic TM2 PANEL.CFG only" and nothing else.

3. Also want to check you've not applied any of the TM2 suggested edits .... since these are more appropriate to "their own FDE" and not what we supply. I wouldn't be inclined to apply any of the TM2 recommended edits to our FDE suits .... because the FDE supplied within each B732 base pack we offer is already composed of everything that's been determined necessary.


Information contained within the TM2 manual/RTF (etc) documentation, accompanying their panel, is helpful (if not essential) in order to understanding panel gauges/functions, but again, I wouldn't be inclined to apply any of the edits recommended within this data .... as we can't, properly, as yet, vouch for these.

In short/In summary. All one needs is to do is mate the basic TM2 B732 panel .... with it's basic PANEL.CFG .... to the B732 simulations we offer and everything should run perfectly fine.

I sent you my own panel to try (and which is configured precisely in accordance with my above commentary and forum based manual advisories) .... and which is entirely what everyone else (opting to use the recommended "TM2 V1.25 panel with V1.26 update") should have and be using.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Very busy (at home here) this morning Kurt and I actually missed your following earlier comment ....

I have the nosewheel and rudder locked together on the keypress

"THAT" coupled key-press could (possibly) be the cause of your issue .... especially if the horn's not being triggered per joystick influence.

My advice therefore is un-do that key-press coupling .... and use joystick influence only.

With these simulations (using the recommended panel) there's a relationship between flap, elevator, and power settings and the horn.

In the event that coupled key-press might be (I don't say it actually is though) causing a momentarily deflection of the Elevator Trim setting when applied, then, such could "possibly" trigger the horn if the Trim Setting moved sufficiently. To determine whether of not this might be happening try performing the following two checks....

1. Manually set the CP located Trim Indicator to about "5 units" (4.5 to 5.0 units within the green band should be considered normal for these B732 simulations "at MGW") and FLAPS 10. Set power and accelerate for TO .... but .... keep the CP sub panel open (over the Main Panel view) and upon needing to hitting your key-press note whether or not the Elevator Trim setting moves beyond where you last set it.

2. Do the same as above. But this time close the CP sub panel. Accelerate for TO .... hit your key-press and as soon as the horn's triggered immediately pause the simulation, then quickly reopen the CP sub panel and note whether or not the Elevator Trim setting has moved from where you previously set it.

I've heard of "very rare" situations where, in the case of some controller device configurations/assignments, manually applied inputs have resulted in momentary spikes/reflex actions that briefly influence other control related settings. I'm also recall a "similarly rare" situation where selected sub panel settings, automatically altered, between closing and then reopening the very same sub panel. Just thought I'd mention this having just now been reminded of this .... although I need to say these observations have never been reported in regard any of these B732 simulations. Still worth checking though.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[biggiraffe]

Hello!

I'm sure embarrassed to tell you this, especially after all the time and effort you've put into my problem... The problem was with my using the "4" and "6" keypress, which are actually aileron commands, to steer the aircraft during takeoff and landing (hidden from me since I had the rudder on "Auto" in the Realism settings, so the rudder worked with the ailerons as did the steering). If I use either a twist of the joystick or use the correct key commands for steering, there is no horn.

I downloaded your panel files but since I had already followed instructions and only had your specified files loaded, I have not replaced mine with yours. But now we see it was the way I was controlling the aircraft.

Just goes to show you can't account for someone incorrectly "flying" the airplane... On the bright side, I will change my habits and do it right in the future!

Thank you,
Best regards,
Kurt