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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 27, 2008 20:51:05 GMT
This certainly isn't the type of news one wasnt to awaken to  .... A leased AIR NEW ZEALAND A320 lost in the Mediterranean  .... though not an AIR NEW ZEALAND flight/service .... UPDATED REPORT ....Five NZ'ers feared dead after Air NZ crash
November 28, 2008, 9:16 am
Five New Zealanders are given no hope of surviving the crash of an Airbus A320 operated by XL Airways of Germany in the Mediterranean today.
One Air New Zealand pilot, three engineers and a Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) inspector were among the seven people on the aircraft, which crashed off Perpignan, in southeast France.
The Airbus was being flown by two XL Airways pilots.
At least three people have been confirmed dead while the four others are missing.
A French journalist said the search for bodies was continuing in the dark despite strong wind and rain.
He said there was no hope of survivors.
"It's not really clear on what happened...the plane was flying for one hour and a half and suddenly fell down to the sea," he told Radio New Zealand .
"The was no explosion, it was flying (at) 300m and suddenly fell down into the sea, but no explosion."
There were many witnesses, and emergency services were quickly at the scene.
The aircraft was believed to be 45m deep in the sea and divers would try and recover the black box tomorrow.
Some wreckage was floating on the surface, but the pieces were "very difficult to find because of the big waves and the dark".
A surveillance plane, two rescue helicopters and five ships scouring the seas around the crash site about 3km from the shore.
About 20 specialist frogmen were taking part in the operation.
The mood at Air New Zealand and CAA headquarters in Wellington was sombre this morning, as staff waited for news from France.
The aircraft was owned by Air New Zealand and had been on lease to XL Airways for the past two years.
Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe said it was being flown to Frankfurt, where it was due to be handed back for a ferry flight back to New Zealand .
"Naturally, this is an extremely difficult time for us all and the full resources of the airline are being put into investigating what may have happened and providing support to our people and their families," he said.
One of CAA's Wellington staff is thought to be among the missing.
"We believe it could be one of ours'," spokesman Bill Sommer told NZPA.
"We're waiting for confirmation, we haven't gone past the search and rescue stage. We need confirmation."
The certification engineer was on the trip as part of the process by which aircraft and handed over from the European operator.
The aircraft, wearing Air New Zealand livery, was on a test flight and took off from Perpignan about 5.30am ( New Zealand time).
The crash came 29 years to the day that an Air New Zealand DC10 crashed into Mt Erebus, killing all 257 passengers and crew.
Mr Fyfe said today was already a very poignant one for Air New Zealand because of the Erebus tragedy and the anniversary added a new dimension to today's tragedy.
The Airbus A320 had apparently been undergoing maintenance checks at Perpignan airport before it took off on a test flight.
The aircraft was four years old and when delivered had flown for Freedom Air for about a year before being leased to XL Airways.
It was due back in New Zealand this week.
The pilot was from Auckland and the engineers were from Christchurch and Auckland, Mr Fyfe said.
The pilot was a very experienced captain "which is typically what we want when we are going through one of these acceptance processes. We have our most experienced people ensuring the aircraft is up to Air New Zealand standards."
Several staff were waiting in Frankfurt, Germany, to take over the aircraft on its flight back to New Zealand .
The jet had been undergoing servicing at EAS Industries in Perpignan and flying circuits for 90 minutes before it crashed, an emergency services spokesman said.
Six French aviation accident investigators and two from Germany were being sent to help an inquiry with experts from the French civil aviation authority (DGAC) and Airbus .
Airbus said it delivered the jet in July 2005 and it had carried out 2800 flights with about 7000 hours of use since then. The constructor gave no details of the accident.
There are about 3700 A320 jets in service with almost 3000 more to be delivered. Air New Zealand own two Airbus aircraft, and lease 10.
Their average age is four years, and they seat about 150 passengers.
A spokesman for Prime Minister John Key said he would hold a press conference early this afternoon in Wellington to talk about the crash.
"This is obviously a tragic situation for the families of the people killed and also for the airline. We are in touch with Air New Zealand and the Civil Aviation Authority."Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 27, 2008 23:33:42 GMT
MORE .... No hope of survivors in New Zealand jet crash off France: official
November 28, 2008, 11:02 am
PERPIGNAN, France (AFP) - There is no hope of finding survivors from the Air New Zealand Airbus A320 jet that crashed into the Mediterranean sea during a test flight, a French official said Thursday.
The jet crashed in the sea near the French city of Perpignan from where it had taken off, and emergency services said that while two bodies had been recovered, another five people were still missing.
But Dominique Alzeari, assistant prosecutor at Perpignan, told reporters there was "no hope of finding survivors".
The wreckage was spread over several hundred metres (yards), a regional government official told AFP.
The jet, built in 2005, had been leased to German charter firm, XL Airways, since 2006. Airline spokesman Asger Schubert said the two pilots in the jet were German and worked for XL Airways Germany.
The regional prefecture said the five other people on board were New Zealanders.
Earlier Thursday, a major rescue operation was launched with a surveillance plane, two rescue helicopters and five coastguard vessels scouring the seas around the crash site about 3.5 nautical miles (2.5 kilometres) from the shore.
About 20 specialist frogmen were taking part in the operation.
The French navy sent ships to the zone in a bid to find the wreckage and find the black box flight recorders.
They were due to halt their activities at 11:30 pm (1030 GMT) and resume on Friday morning, said officials.
The jet had been undergoing servicing at EAS Industries in Perpignan and had been flying circuits for 90 minutes before it crashed, an emergency services spokesman said.
Six French aviation accident investigators and two from Germany were being sent to help an inquiry with experts from the French civil aviation authority (DGAC) and Airbus .
In Auckland, Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe told reporters that the Air New Zealand Airbus A320 aircraft, on lease to XL Airways of Germany for the last two years, was due to be handed over to Air New Zealand in Frankfurt.
"On board that aircraft was one Air New Zealand captain and three Air New Zealand engineers, along with one New Zealand CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) inspector," Fyfe said.
The crash occurred 29 years after the crash of an Air New Zealand DC10 into Mount Erebus in Antarctica on November 28, 1979. All 257 passengers and crew on the sightseeing flight were killed in the crash.
Airbus said it delivered the jet in July 2005 and it had carried out 2,800 flights with about 7,000 hours of use since then. The constructor gave no details of the accident.
There are about 3,700 A320 jets in service with almost 3,000 more to be delivered.
Service accidents are quite rare. An Airbus A340 crashed on November 15, 2007 at Toulouse-Blagnac airport causing three serious injuries.[/quote] [/b] Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by jetblue3000 on Nov 28, 2008 3:47:38 GMT
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Post by gus on Nov 28, 2008 5:15:00 GMT
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 28, 2008 20:57:16 GMT
Latest "reliable" news from here .... Locator signals picked up from Air NZ planes' black boxes
November 29, 2008, 8:16 am
Locator signals have been picked up from two black box flight recorders from the Air New Zealand-owned plane that crashed into the Mediterranean yesterday, French search and rescue authorities said today.
The Airbus A320, flown by two German pilots and carrying five New Zealanders, plunged into the sea off the southern French coast as it approached Perpignan airport.
Two bodies were found shortly after the crash, but the five others were still missing.
The plane was on a test flight as part of maintenance being done before being returned to Air NZ after a two-year lease to German company XL Airways.
Air NZ said this morning that it had notified that bad weather meant the flight recorders were unlikely to be recovered until tomorrow.
Group general manager international Ed Sims said the conditions had significantly hampered search and rescue efforts.
"There are now high winds and significant swells, and temperatures remain cool in the search area," he said.
"Realistically, hopes of finding any survivors are fading. Our thoughts continue to be with the families of the missing men."
Four of the five New Zealanders on board were Air NZ staff.
They were Captain Brian Horrell, 52, from Auckland; and engineers Murray White, 37, from Auckland, Michael Gyles, 49, from Christchurch, and Noel Marsh, 35, from Christchurch.
The fifth New Zealander was Civil Aviation Authority airworthiness inspector Jeremy Cook, 58, of Wellington.
Mr Marsh leaves a pregnant wife and two young sons.
His wife, Tracy, and family said they were deeply saddened, but retained hope that Mr Marsh was still alive.
The flight involved a series of routine manoeuvres.
Capt Horrell, with 22 years' services with the Air NZ and one of the company's most experienced A320 captains, was sitting behind the two German pilots, observing that the plane was operating normally.
Mr White, Mr Gyles, Mr Marsh and Mr Cook were seated further back.
During its time with the German airline, the plane made 2800 flights totalling about 7000 hours of use.
It passed all its ground and maintenance inspections before taking off.
The plane disappeared off radar screens at 4.54 pm local time (4.54am NZ time) when it was about 8km out from Perpignan airport.
A gendarme who raised the alarm after he saw the plane go down said he watched as it suddenly went into a dive while flying at a height of around 300 metres.
"It tried to straighten up but then it fell right into the sea, sending a huge spray of water into the air," he said.
Strong winds and choppy seas made the search more difficult, but navy divers returned to the scene at dawn on Friday.
The wreck is lying on a sandy bank at a depth of 35m, according to officials who said late yesterday, before suspending the search for the night, that there was no hope of finding survivors.
A rescue plane and a helicopter were circling the crash area today to try to spot bodies, while several navy and coastguard boats scoured the sea.
French Transport Minister Dominique Bussereau flew over the site where the plane went down about 7km off the coast.
He later went to pay his respects to the two dead men in the hospital in Perpignan where their bodies were taken, and was due to be briefed by investigators probing the cause of the crash.
Mr Bussereau said the plane went to France for tests and to be repainted in Air NZ's colours before heading to Frankfurt, from where it had been scheduled to leave for New Zealand today.
An emergency services spokesman said the jet had been undergoing servicing at EAS Industries in Perpignan and had been flying circuits for 90 minutes before it crashed.
Hundreds of shocked Air NZ staff gathered at the airline's headquarters in Auckland where they were told it was unlikely any of those on board had survived.
Air NZ chief executive Rob Fyfe was en route to France today, along with family members of at least one of the airline's staff on the crashed plane.
New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said described the incident as a great tragedy.
"We'll work with Air New Zealand and the families to help in any way that is appropriate
Probably one thing that needs to be clarified here .... even though the news reports above (from "reliable" sources) make this abundantly clear .... 1. it "IS" an AIR NEW ZEALAND aircraft involved but the aircrat had been on lease to XL AIRWAYS. 2. 5 AIR NEW ZEALAND staff were aboard the aircraft as observers but the handling crew were from XL AIRWAYS. It's just they way "SOME" of the media are presenting things ("AIR NEW ZEALAND A320 CRASH") one would think the aircraft had been operating a rotine/scheduled AIR NEW ZEALAND service .... which of course was "NOT" the case  Still .... reclarifying that certainly doesn't bring any comfort to those just bereaved .... or any lighter burden to bear for ecveryone else either .... more-so this close to Christmas .... and "RIGHT BANG-SMACK" on the anniversary of our "Erebus Disaster" as well too !  Mark C |
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Post by gus on Dec 1, 2008 12:53:08 GMT
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 1, 2008 20:27:57 GMT
I can't agree more ! "SPECULATION" is the last thing anyone of us here needs in a situation like this Although loss of life may be very small it's still by no means any easier to deal with .... for us, I mean, this was our aircraft, our airline, and our people lost That's our proud "Koru" tail logo sitting in the tide off the French coast .... our identity !  We .... "NEW ZEALAND" .... are a small, isolated, and normally very close-knit community. Perhaps it's a reflection of our countries small size/population and general "KIWI COMERADERIE" .... that those of us whom have been closely associated with civil aviation over many years past knew personally each of/some of the AIR NEW ZEALAND crew lost to this tragic accident. It cuts us very close to the bone ! As patient/tolerant with people as I normally am (to a point .... cross that bloody line and look out though ) I get extremely irritated by what may be perceived as irresponsible, misinformed, uneducated, immature, and just incredibly unprofessional reporting being advanced from "some" media sources here. In many cases theories are being hypothesized by people whom know nothing whatsoever about aviation .... people whom wouldn't know up from down let alone the difference between an A320 and the QE2 It really makes me "SICK" .... and we just don't need it !!!!  We don't want guesses, theories, and assumptions regarding what someone thinks might have happened. We want conclusions based on meticulously thorough professional analysis of the facts/evidence .... for which the investigation needs "TIME" .... "A LOT OF TIME" to properly complete/conclude. Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by gus on Dec 2, 2008 17:09:18 GMT
Hello, More news and no good news at all if possible to be bad as the accident. www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4779575a19718.htmlBlack boxes very damaged..... Suspicions are already running in some French medias.... The "procureur de la Republique" announced yesterday the CVR recovered and in good shape Today in a press meeting he tell the contrary..... Airbus is never lucky with black boxes... Coverup already alleged in two cases of Airbus accidents.(Air France accidents) Hope the New Zealand airline will clever follow the devellopment of those inquiries. Many also astonished ..black boxes so damaged because impact. Aircraft was low and in approach .. and the impact (speculation mode open) is alleged to be far under what black boxes and internal datas are able to sustain....... Update from the New Zealand Herald: Cheers. |
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Post by christrott on Dec 2, 2008 21:56:22 GMT
Gus,
One thing to remember is that water yields much less than ground, so impacts at similar speeds have far different forces between the two. However, as this is a "young" aircraft, if it does not have solid-state boxes installed, then I would be surprised which makes substantial damage to anything other than the external box and protection somewhat suspect.
Second, I agree that there are some "oddities" going on here, but many times those are due to poor communication between parties involved and not any malfeasance.
The fact that the boxes are going to Honeywell should remove any suspicion as they will act impartially and they will be accurate and complete in their reporting of what is on the boxes.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 3, 2008 5:52:46 GMT
HMMM .... looks like the "Post Mortem Syndrome" is already starting to set .... and probably working overtime too .... Appreciate you participation/contriburions "GUS" .... but .... whilst it's always prudent to be weary of what might have gone on in the past .... it's probably even more prudent to not give life to such allegations as these. I know you mean well .... but .... it doesn't help any of us .... really ! Let's allow the professional investigation team to run the full course of their analysis. Chris is right ! The water/sea is BLOODY HARD !!!! .... even in the case of a relatively low speed impact I've already hit the sea once in an airplane .... and lived to tell the tale too .... but .... BOY OH BOY .... the violence of such an impact defies imagination. It's an experience I never .... ever .... want to have to endure again When I reflect upon those impact forces associated with my experience of a number of years back, I shudder to think what those impact forces sustained by our recent A320 prang might have been like for those 7 unfortunate POB Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by gus on Dec 3, 2008 12:56:25 GMT
Hello,
I think ... obviously .. water can be compared to ground in case of impact ... never tell the contrary ..
The main factor of destructions and life threatening is the G force ...
The G force resulting of a object hiting water or ground in same conditions must be even equal ... difference anyways can appear by the shape and speed of the object impacting those material.
It's just technical ... as the G forces to consider is the force able to destruct the human body (a car impact is already able to produce this limit)
I'm merchant navy officer by profession .. and for some reasons have to follow survival helicopter ditching courses each 5 years..
The last words from the instructors were always...
" now .. all you learn there is only applicable if you stay conscious after the ditch .. and this is the main concern"
The exact intensity of the G forces is more a concern for the black boxes ... as they can resist G force in a way far superior than the human body.
Water in case of aviation accident is worse than ground because the difficulties added for the researches of evidences .. when the wreck is localised... and also the chance of survival (time of) at sea are less than those on ground... for many obvious reasons.
About the black boxes ... the latest press releases tell black boxes in perfect exterior shape but datas in bad condition.
Confirmed also ... the plane was approaching the airport for make a touch and go and after continue his way to Germany.
Cheers.
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Post by christrott on Dec 7, 2008 0:13:59 GMT
Gus, sorry, but water is substantially "harder" during an impact that ground. Water has a high surface tension and thus higher tensile strength than anything other than solid granite. As a liquid, it DOES NOT compress, only displaces, thus it makes it much more damaging during an impact with any velocity than standard "ground" which does compress and does give.
I would seriously suggest that you do some research into impact forces on different surfaces. There are several reports that have been published by accident investigators on the issue and the conclusion is the same - an object impacting water at the same speed as the same object impacting "ground" (not rock) will experience far greater impact forces as the surface tension of the water causes it to not give and have a resistance to impact equivalent to hard rock. The old adage "hitting a brick wall" isn't far from the truth when talking about a water impact.
There is a reason that depth bombs, torpedoes, and the like which are designed to be dropped from aircraft have reinforced nosecones and have a very specific shape - if they didn't, they'd collapse and/or explode on impact (and many did before they realized that they needed such reinforcement).
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Post by gus on Dec 7, 2008 8:31:05 GMT
Hello, Oki doki .... but in certain circonstances the theory is different. I give you a riddle  You have to jump from a high of 10 meters ... ( position is the typical diver position .. head firts ...) You have also the choice to jump over a granit surface or water... What is your choice .. ? (personnaly I will prefer water and feet first ) Cheers.  |
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.... 
.... though not an AIR NEW ZEALAND flight/service ....
