ajd
CV-880
Posts: 2 
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Post by ajd on Apr 4, 2010 0:51:54 GMT
I successfully installed the HJG 707-120 on FS9. The problem is the plane will not takeoff until about 200 knots even if it has only 10% fuel and no payload. Also it takes forever to speed up. I have the same problem with the HJG 727-100 too. Does anyone know how to fix this?
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Apr 4, 2010 2:23:15 GMT
Firstly .... you've got to remember that the B707-120 (like the DC8-10 also) was in fact underpowered !
It will require most, if not all of, the longest RWY at the default KSEA airport in order to get airborne .... and RWY T/O performance of early KC135 is , intentionally, even worse still !
The correct T/O procedure .... at least those procedures recommended by me .... are as follows ....
1. Check that your aircraft weight is within allowable limits. Most HJG aircraft load, intentionally, with a 100% fuel and payload .... and which then results in a desirable overload .... requiring fuel or payload reductions .... or both .... in order to set these aircraft up at, or below, their MGTOW. If you want to fly for range then you'll have to drop payload .... and .... if you want to carry payload then you'll have to drop fuel and which will then affect range .... in order not to exceed the aircraft MGTOW.
2. You must ensure that flaps are set .... 1 knotch only for the B707-120 and all early B707/720 versions.
3. You must set a few degrees of trim prior to T/O.
4. You "MUST/SHOULD" hold this aircraft on the RWY threshold .... locking the brakes "ON" .... then running the engines right up to "MAX/FULL POWER" (they will spool up quite slowly which, unlike fanjets and turbofans, is a characteristic of these early turbojet engines according to our lengthy technical research) .... and .... you must also select "ON" all 4 Water Methanol Injection switches which are prominently located on the Main Panel and which are intended to augment T/O thrust and climb thrust .... for the first 3 minutes only. DO NOT COMMENCE YOUR T/O ROLL UNTIL ALL 4 "WI" LAMPS HAVE ILLUMINATED .... or .... you likely will run out of RWY.
"IF" you do all of that correctly .... then there's no reason why you should not get airborne before reaching the paddock at the end of the RWY.
REMEMBER .... even at reduced weights .... B707-120's and DC8-10's are not aircraft for short RWY's.
Failing that .... you may have a joystick, or other related control device issue, which might need being looked at.
With regard to the B727-100 ....
Both the T/O procedures and capabilities of these aircraft are "quite different".
3 knotches of flap (roughly 15 degrees) .... a little trim (roughly 5 units) .... and a rolling T/O should be "NO PROBLEM AT ALL" for these fanjet powered aircraft .... and which should then result in your using around half, if not less than half, of the longest RWY at the default KSEA airport.
Again .... if your procedures aren't at fault .... then maybe you control dfevices are .... and which, I feel, is more than likely since you're reporting 2 completely unrelated aircraft (which have no such previously reported faults) are being similarly affected !
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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ajd
CV-880
Posts: 2
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Post by ajd on Apr 4, 2010 2:50:42 GMT
Ok thanks I will try that.
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Post by George Carty - HJG on Apr 4, 2010 11:29:49 GMT
The 707-120 should take off at about 150 knots (or less if lightly loaded), although as Mark point out it does have a huge take-off run.
If you cannot get the aircraft to rotate at that speed, your trim is probably set incorrectly, otherwise you are probably attempting to take-off overweight.
I think Mark may be wrong about the flaps though - I thought the 707-120 and 720 used 2 notches of flap (30 degrees) for take-off.
George
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Apr 4, 2010 20:01:19 GMT
FLAP 30 .... for a B707-120 T/O .... really !  ;D I had heard that was the case for the early C135-A's (different wing) when operating with extremely high payloads .... or in overload situations, but, didn't know this actually applied to the early B707's as well too  For the last 4 years I've been using 1 knotch "only" of flap for T/O (roughly FLAP 20) .... and without any problems At least I've never done any off-roading beyond the opposite RWY threshold .... or bent an aircraft attempting to T/O  ;D INTERESTING !  Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Apr 6, 2010 0:01:41 GMT
Last night George presented me with an interesting document .... an extract from a PAN AM B707-120B manual. Nice find George !  This document clearly states that a T/O flap setting of 30 degrees "IS" normal for these aircraft .... and it may also be assumed to apply to B367-80, B707-120, B707-220, B720, and B720-B too. I've just tried this in FS2004 .... with the turbojet powered B707-120. T/O weight was just on 256,740 LBS .... the MGTOW for this aircraft (B707-120) is 257,000 LBS. FLAP 30 was set. The T/O V Speeds were calculated as follows .... V1=136, VR=146, and V2=159. Approximately 4 units of Trim was set. Maximum thrust (with water injection) was applied. The aircraft reached rotation speed .... at approx 3/4 of the way along the default KSEA RWY 16R .... and the main gear broke free a very short distance later .... and without any problems whatsoever ! This aircraft is also still able to T/O from the same RWY, and at the same weight, and using FLAP 20 .... only the T/O run will be fractionally longer ! Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by parkway on Jan 28, 2011 0:41:31 GMT
This all sounds very helpful but my B-707-120-65 panel doesn't have a methanol injection system. Right now I'd need a Saturn 5 rocket to get my B-707-120 off of a 12000 foot runway even significantly underloaded (243000 lbs).
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Post by jimhalinda on Jan 28, 2011 0:52:01 GMT
I think the 65 panel is for the 120B, which has more powerful engines, hence no need for water injection.
You really should use the correct panel (and follow recommended procedures) for the model you are flying, for maximim realism, which is what HJG are all about. I 'bend' a few rules myself, but for something like this I would definitely want the right panel. Besides, don't you want to see all of that glorious thick, sooty black smoke? I know I do!
Regards,
Jim
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jan 28, 2011 3:08:56 GMT
The original posting (#1 .... above) stated "B707-120" .... as follows ....
This is why specific reference was made, by me, to the turbojet powered B707-120 panel version and also to the Water/Methanol injection system.
HOWEVER .... "IF" the fanjet B707-120B is being implied .... then the standard "B707-120B" or "B707-120B 1965" panels (only) should be used with these aircraft base packs. Either of these B707-120B panel versions can be used with either our B707-120B or B707120BF aircraft base pack .... it doesn't matter ....
As Jim quite correctly implies .... folk need to check they're indeed using the correct panels with the correct aircraft base pack versions .... recommended as follows ....
Failure to do this "WILL" result in performance issues of the type you ("PARKWAY" and "ADJ") say you're experiencing !
The rest, in terms of operational procedures in order to get airborne (with the B707-120B) remains as outlined in my own first reply post (notes #1-4 ..... i.e. flap, trim, and power settings), but, ignore my reference to Water/Methanol Injection .... "ONLY" if using either of the 2 B707-120B panels and aircraft base packs as well as later B707/B720 aircraft/panel versions.
Water Methanol injection is relevent/applies to the B707-120 1959 and B707-139 1959 (and early C135/KC135) aircraft base packs and panels only.
There are no known issues with any of these aircraft .... so long as they are each correctly configured .... both in terms of file installation as wellprocedures .... as recommended above !
"IF" you're ("PARKWAY") certain you've done everything right, but, are still having problems .... then you might have a controller device issue (check that your throttle callibration is actually giving you full power) that may need to be reconciled.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by parkway on Jan 28, 2011 6:58:15 GMT
I failed to mention that the aircraft I'm referring to is in fact a 120B and I apologize for misleading everyone. It appears however that the methanol is not used with the 707-120B and panel 120B-65 combo anyway. I guess I'll have to check my equipment. Thanks everyone for your help.
Can anyone tell me if airport elevation is an issue - I've been trying to take off from KSLC at 4200'.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jan 28, 2011 7:09:00 GMT
No problem "PARKWAY" .... your experience undoubtedly helps any number of other folk whom may be too timid to ask publicly For that reason .... no query is ever a stupid query ! "ABSOLUTELY" .... The performance of any aircraft (though with these early generation jetliners in particular) is impaired by such as the likes of airport altitude and ambient temperature .... SO .... you may need to reduce your payload, or, increrase engine thrust settings for T/O .... or both. For high altitude airports you'd probably be better off using the the rare B707-220 aircraft base pack and panel. This particular aircraft was a lighter MGTOW "hot and high" operations variant of the B707-120 .... used by BRANIFF INTERNATIONAL .... for it's Latin American routes .... most of which are high altitude airports .... like Bogota, Colombia (8,500 FT), and Mexico City, Mexico (10,000 FT) .... to name but a few ! Hot and high altitude airports should, however, be much less of a problem for the later fanjet powered B707 series aircraft .... like the -120B, -138B, -320B, -320B ADVC, and -320C .... BUT .... you might still need to watch your loadings carefully. Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by jimhalinda on Jan 28, 2011 16:38:43 GMT
If all else looks right (correct panel, lightly loaded, takeoff flaps set), make sure you have set some nose-up trim, that can make a big difference.
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Post by parkway on Jan 28, 2011 17:45:57 GMT
Thanks for the tips. My joystick calibration is correct. I also moved the aircraft to Phoenix (1100') but it still takes a 2 mile runway and 2 farmers fields to get airborn; after which the performance has been spectacularly inconsistent. Does anyone else have a problem with this aircraft? By the way I opted for the Western Airlines livery, an LA-based airline that operated out of Salt Lake City.
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Post by christrott on Jan 28, 2011 17:49:28 GMT
Do you have all of your reality sliders fully moved to the right? If not, that can explain the problem as well.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Jan 28, 2011 22:29:27 GMT
Apart from the possibility of "PILOT ERROR" .... there are no known issues regarding the flying of our B707-120B .... or any of our other B707/B720 simulations either.
It must be remenbered that B707 aircraft do not like short RWY's.
You must ensure that theaircrafts weight is within the certified limits .... per either fuel or payload reduction .... or both !
Prior to T/O .... ensure that both TRIM and 30* (degrees) of FLAP are set .... maybe FLAP 20 if the aircraft is very light !
Hold the aircraft on the RWY threshold using the brakes .... and then spool the engines up to T/O power (around N1 97% or roungly EPR 1.85 depending on altitude andf ambient temperature. The engines will spool up slowly and which is a characteristic of these early fanjet type engines) .... and then release the brakes and start rolling.
The following is not realworld performance data, but, is a "flying guide" (for FS convenience) which I compiled during our last extensive pre-release testing of both our B707 panels and aircraft base packs/FDE .... among which also included B707-120B and B707-120BF testing ....
Based on the above procedures, and using the default KSEA RWY 34R, the B707-120B should become airborne at approximately 3/4 of the way down the length of this RWY .... provided it is not overweight to start with .... and .... everything has been set correctly for T/O .... AND JUST AS IMPORTANTLY .... provided that the right panel has been mated with the right aircraft base pack/FDE, or, performance will "SUFFER".
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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;D
;D
