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Post by aeroart on Oct 12, 2011 0:10:39 GMT
I looked through all the files, but couldn't find one. Any suggestions as to where I can find one?
Thanks for your help.
Art
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Post by christrott on Oct 12, 2011 4:16:18 GMT
Search "Matt Zagoren" at Flightsim.com or AVSIM.com, he's got a set for the 727-100 and 727-200 that's quite good.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Oct 12, 2011 5:31:19 GMT
In regard to "a manual" .... if you're needing something like that for use with the aircraft models, panels/gauges, textures, sounds, and effects which we offer "HERE" .... then kindly refer to my following posting which you'll find on the "ABOUT HJG AIRCRAFT" forum page .... "B727 PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES"tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hjgaircraftlistings&action=display&thread=2382This documentation goesw a long way beyond installation procedures to cover "most of everything that's esssential to be known/understood" in order to be able to use/enjoy these B727 simulations to "THE MAXIMUM". Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by dutchman2 on Oct 12, 2011 17:07:11 GMT
For general 727 info you might want to try;
boeing-727.com
or
smartcockpit.com
The first is by a guy named benson who has alot of three holer info to offer and a pretty good system overview.
The second one has alot of different airframe info, although most is later generation.
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Post by walterleo on Oct 12, 2011 17:25:22 GMT
For general 727 info you might want to try; boeing-727.com is by a guy named benson who has alot of three holer info to offer and a pretty good system overview. Hi: Sorry to say that www.boeing-727.com for the moment is down. I used the data's and tables since FS 98 (there was also a R. Probst panel (superb!) for the 727 in FS 98 available. For X-plane there is also available a 727-100 and 200 checklist including speed-tables. With the Probst-panel you have also very valuable info built into the speed-tables and the FI report including even best altitude to climb for your flight at what speed.... Benson had also a guide for flying a visual circuit (speeds, trigger points etc. and a complete set of checklists of the real thing (normal and abnormal procedures!). Hopefully the homepage will come back! If not lets see how to reconstruct at least something. Walter |
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Post by louross on Oct 12, 2011 19:29:14 GMT
boeing-727.com might be temp down, or even permanent. Anyway, he was a Capt. at AA (I think it was AA). His write-up of the systems is very informative, with great explanations. Unfortunately, the spelling and other type errors are rather numerous, making the reading a little difficult, but I have found that to be common with most of the FS writings. (Why is that?) I have a written copy, but no way to upload it. If you have any ideas, let me know.
lr.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Oct 12, 2011 20:15:37 GMT
That's the panel version the B727 panels "we offer here" are all based upon .... and which were re-engineered/improved by us to some considerable extent whilst also preserving all of their original features too. These panels (hosted here) represent the very best solution for the B727 simulation offered by us .... with the manuals/tutorials/guides provided, by us for these, being written exclusively around these particular product versions. Other panel versions and their references might not be completely compatible with our product/simulation. Realworld data can be used/referenced .... as a guide .... if desired (since what we offer here is mostly within the ball park of known B727 TYPE performances), but remember, FS, and our own skills too, have limitations .... so .... not every procedure or performance can be successfully replicated into any particular simulation. I felt I just needed to communicate that !  . Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by walterleo on Oct 13, 2011 12:47:37 GMT
That's the panel version the B727 panels "we offer here" are all based upon .... and which were re-engineered/improved by us to some considerable extent whilst also preserving all of their original features too. Mark C AKL/NZ Yes Mark I only wanted to highlight that: The Panel of HJG 727 is the last and best version of what I called "Probst-Panel" and taking together all informations provided in it and with it you can "fly" it like a "pro" within the limits of FS9. What on the homepage of Benson was offered more are shortcut formulas, the real checklists and a guide for flying a visual circuit, which with the model turns out as being a good guide. The HJG model needs a little more power on approach as a real 727-100 or -200. The real 727 "drivers" put the engines at around 3000 p fuel-burn on a ILS final (no wind) the model needs a little more, at least thats my memory (have to fly her again!). Walter |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Oct 13, 2011 19:22:22 GMT
That's probably quite true ! A small number of nasty accidents did occur when the B727 first entered service .... essentially because some crews allowed their airspeed to decline "too much" on approach .... to the extent that this then induced a lethal sink rate which couldn't be arrested even by the emergency application of full power. I can't recall how our B727's perform on approach (been a while since I landed one in FS) .... but .... even with full flap, and gear down, and a full payload with only around 20% fuel remaining .... for the B727's I generally maintain 150-155 KTS approach speed until just above the threshold and before settling onto the RWY .... in order to avoid the realworld problem mentioned above .... and which usually ses me "hit the ground" at around 140-145 KTS. With most other aircraft I'd probably be looking at around 145-150 KtS during the approach to landing .... to "hit the ground" at around 135-140 KTS this later phase of landing. I generally don't pay too much attention to N1/N2/EGT/F/F indications during this phase of flight .... and really just concentrate on trimming up and flying at whatever speed is necessary in order to maintain a good, sensible, and above all stable approach to landing Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by louross on Oct 13, 2011 21:05:53 GMT
I flew the 727 for a short time and approaches are based on fuel flow. However, in real life as in the sim, I never actually looked at the engine panel except once or maybe twice but only to confirm everything was green, never actually "reading" the gauges. In the real a/c , if you did not know what setting to use as a start, a rule of thumb was to move the power levers to the straight up position, then makes adjustments for air speed from there.
I do it different in FS- there is no "straight up" position, but the power is reduced gradually to maintain slower speeds as I descend and get closer to the field. I usually take flaps pretty quick to 15* and as that slows me I pull the power back to maintain 160 to the FAF where ake 30* flaps and gear, reduce power and cross the runway at 120-130 which are my typical landing weights- heavy pax loads and cargo. The charts says 130T lbs with a Vref of 122; 135T lbs and Vref at 125 for the -200. Also 30* flaps is standard landing cfg- 40* is for very short runways. My charts show 140kts for a landing wgt of 165T lbs. Max lannding wgt is 150T.
However, unlike the real world, in FS I do not add 1/2 the wind component + gust factor; basic Vref works perfect for me. (BTW, I use the DF program, but the HJG panel should be using the same numbers- it's a 727.)
If I were simulating a hydraulic failure I'd use 150 as Vref, bades on 1.3 stall speed, flaps up.
It works for me.
lr.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Oct 13, 2011 22:03:17 GMT
Getting F/F indications "RIGHT" within FS .... can be a bit of a "pregnant dog". Get these numbers "BANG-ON" (more-or-less) for T/O and they can then start to become "progressively out" as one climbs to higher altitudes and settles in the cruise. We generally try to get F/F right for T/O power .... and whatever's then observed next just has to be tolerated !  This's just one of those (many) realworld versus virtual/FS world situations/compromises we have to "put up with" Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by walterleo on Oct 14, 2011 16:39:47 GMT
Hi:
One nasty trait of these old engines is very well simulated in the HJG model: the spool-up time.
The crashes of early B 727 happened out of steep approaches flown at low power settings. Combined with the highly efficient flap/slat system this brought the situation, that the high braking effect of the high-lift devices did eat up the airspeed much faster than the engines could spool up when the crews flatened their descent.
Finally it was lack of training, especially for crews which had not flown jets before.
Other planes of similar design like the Tu-154 had similar problems at the beginning. With that plane final has to be flown with full flaps at 265 km/h-0 km/h and 82 % (!) power. If you pull back to 75 % of power or less an immediate go around is mandatory. This can happen e.g with a good wind from behind and calm winds at the runway. As happened in Smolensk to Polish Air-force 101 and was contributing to the crash. The investigators calculated that the spool up to climb-power would have taken up to 10 seconds. Even respecting the minimum there of 100 m QFE a crash would be possible at the power of below 75 % which was selected.
P.S.: FF 727-200 HJG: 3700p/H on ILS (Flap 30).
Kind regards
Walter
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Post by Falcon on Oct 14, 2011 18:12:37 GMT
Easy in real life to get behind the power curve in the old Bird, but what a great old bird she is!
It was way to easy to get the angle of attack to great for the power setting, and once she started to settle, almost impossible to correct!
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Oct 14, 2011 18:54:10 GMT
About 7-10 seconds .... for big GE, P&W and RR type turbofan engines (like those on the A300, B747, DC10, and L1011) to transition into full power.
Early P&W turbojet engines (like those on the B707-120/138 and DC8-10) took as bit longer than that too.
And by comparison .... GE turbojet engines (like those on the CV880 .... fitted with Variable Stators promoting rapid power adjustments) were quite fast spoolers.
We've tried to simulate all of that (as appropriately we can bearing in mind FS limitations) in regard to each of our aircraft/engine type combinations.
I'm now quoting from an extensive and very interesting article written (during the late 1990's) by QANTAS Captain Geoff BROWN .... whom was among the airlines first pilots trained to fly the B707-138 (a shorter version of the B707-120 tailored by Boeing to QANTAS service requirements) when these aircraft entered QF service during 1959 ....
"It was realized early in the peace that a large amount of power must be used during approach to shorten the time taken for the engines to spool up in the event of an overshoot. This required lots of drag so gear down and full flap was the order of the day from the outer locater"
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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