DC9-40 panel problems

[mog]

Hi all, it's me the incompetent one! I've been flying the DC9-40 and love it to bits but I can't seem to get two things to work, it's almost definitely me.

 Number one, the aux fuel tank, centre 2 tank as it's called on the fuel page, as I understand it the tank will feed to the centre tank when the level in the centre tank falls by a certain amount, fine, one selects auto and away it should go, and it is feeding because the contents go down, but as soon as auto is selected "aux tank low pressure" is illuminated on the OH and remains on until it's switched to off, as far as I can recall that caption only comes on to alert the pilot that the pump is not pumping either because the tank is empty or there is a fault, the same is the case with all fuel pumps triggered by a pressure switch on the respective pump.

Number two, there is a flag on the ADI which when I hover my curser over it is described as Locator indicator flag, I assume that this flag should disappear when the A/C is established on the locator beam but it has never disappeared for me.

What am I doing wrong?

Cheers

Mog 

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

"MOG" .... I´ll look at this at get back to you "later on" (replacing this posting with my analysis) .... since it´s a busy morning, here in Bogota, and I need "TIME" to try´n properly analyse what, you say, you´re seeing, then conduct some tests on my own in order to "TRY´N" provide an "intelligent" answer for you .... OK.

Mark C
BOG/CO

[mog]

Thanks Mark, not too intelligent, remember I am a knuckle dragger!

Mog

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

OK "MOGGIE" ....

I finally found time to have a look at these queries for you, but, I´m probably really none-the-wiser for having done so (on the basis of certain limitations of my technical own knowledge) .... therefore I probably can´t answer your queries as definitively as either you, or even I, would like .... BUT ANYWAY .... here goes


1. In regard to the FUEL PUMP SYSTEM in the HJG/HILMERBY/CARTY DC9 panels ....

Are you basing your comments (regarding functionality) on realworld practical knowledge .... in the sense of how these systems do actually operate/work ? .... OR .... Are you commenting in regard to what you may have read about these systems as they are represented for FS, and for these particular panels in particular, and possibly from another manual intended for a different version of these very same DC9 panels ?

I ask this only because I´ve (purposely) never mentioned anything in regard to the functionality of the FUEL PUMP SYSTEM represented within any of these DC9 panels (apart from acknowledging that certain FUEL PUMP switches do exist .... most of which I´ve been recommending should be selected "ON") and simply because, even I, wasn´t entirely certain how the system actually operated .... AND IN ANY CASE .... there´s often great contradictions (resulting in some equally great compromises having to be made) between how such realworld systems actually work versus how they´re represented and are actually made to function within FS .... not all systems being able to be represented (of course) or even made to work as they might in the realworld.

All I can tell you regarding this and with "reasonable authority" is ....

The HJG DC9 simulations are representd by aircraft featuring both 3 and 4-fuel tank configurations. In all probability some of these realworld aircraft may have had more tanking than this, but, the configuration/s represented by HJG are "quite adequate" for FS and a panel of this level of complexity.

Each DC9-10 to -30 version features a 3-tank configuration .... whereas both the DC9-40 and -50 versions each feature a 4-tank configuration .... "from memory".

"Also from memory" (it´s been a while since I last route flew any of these HJG DC9 series simulations .... beyond the occasional necessary re-testing/re-rechecking of some features in support of other recent forum queries) .... only the DC9-20, -40, and -50 panels each feature an AUXILIARY FUEL PUMP switch whereas none of the others do.

Using the FUEL SYSTEM provided .... I don´t think/believe fuel quantity may be transferred between any tank (or even dumped for that matter either) as it is currently represented within these HJG/HIlMERBY/CARTY DC9 panels. In some simulations this may be accomplished, but, not in the case of these DC9´s .... "so far as I´m aware". I think various tanks may be prioritized though .... or even isolated too .... using the FUEL PUMP switches provided .... but .... I´ve never actually tested this.

In regard to my own personal procedure .... how I´ve been flying and recommending these DC9 panels be flown ....

All I´ve ever done is (1) load my simulation for a MGW departure (adjusting the fuel quantity for each individual tank represented and precisely in accordance with my "BASIC FLYING GUIDES" for each DC9 type) .... and then (2) select each of the 6 main FUEL PUMP switches "ON" .... not touching the AUXILIARY FUEL PUMP switch at all (where represented). As a result I´ve never, ever, experienced any fuel related issues/alerts .... with either the FUEL PUMP SYSTEM itself .... or in getting to my destination, and back, with everything suddenly running down/going "quiet on me" en route .... or even landing overweight either for that matter.

ONCE AGAIN .... I´ve never, ever, activated the AUXILIARY FUEL PUMP switch (but you´re right in that it does illuminate an Overhead panel anunciator warning lamp when/if avtivated) .... and in not doing so I´ve never experienced any problem/s at all either and throughout any of my simulated route flying .... most of which are of around 1 to 1.5 hours duration.

I suggest following my own recommended/stated procedure/s .... as stated within my "DC9 BASIC FLYING GUIDES" .... and all should then progress quite well


2. In regard to the RED FLAG (as you call it) displayed on the ADI represented within each of the HJG/HILMERBY/CARTY DC9 panels ....

You´ve got me "on the spot" once again here too .... I think

The "flag" .... to which you refer (in fact it´s the only red feature appearing within any of these DC9 ADI instruments) is actually a "LOCALIZER INDEX".

I´m not actually sure how it works ("HORNET", or "ACOURT", or one of our other resident realword commercial airline pilots associated with HJG might be able to afford time to try´n explain this) .... or .... if it even works at all.

I state the latter comment only because prior to replying to your queries I did quickly fly an AP controlled/ILS coupled auto-approach to landing .... BUT .... didn´t see, or prhaps missed, any obvious movement/indication being displayed by this particular "flag"/index. Apart from that my DC9-40 still "seemingly" flew its entire approach-to-landing .... "perfectly".

Therefore .... other than those uncertainties which I´ve alrady stated (limitations in respect of my own personal knowledge of certain features) .... I´m not really sure there´s anything to be concerned about in regard to the way everything is made, or is currently seen, to function within any of these DC9 panels/simulations .... and more-so too considering everything else (that I´ve mostly gotten my head around by now) does, appear, to be functioning "QUITE WELL".

Mark C
BOG/CO

[mog]

Attachment DeletedHello again Mark,

Thanks for the response, I have done a bit of research and discovered the following... Unusually the DC9 and MD80 ( I had to research this using mainly MD80 because I don't have much info. on the DC9 but since the DC9 became the DC9-80 before the MD was named I feel pretty confident that the systems didn't change much if at all.)to continue, unusually the DC series didn't have fuel tank pump pressure switches, hence the lack of warning captions for each pump on the OH. this is true with one system exception, the aux tank system, this had a pressure switch mounted on the outlet from the Aux tank pump located in the centre tank, there are two pumps per aux tank both feed a common outlet, in AUTO the pumps will run only when switches mounted in the centre tank sense there is sufficient room in the tank, there are two switches for each pump, a start transfer switch and a stop transfer switch. Should both pumps fail or the aux tank become empty the pressure switch will illuminate the AUX TANK LOW PRESSURE caption on the OH and at this point the pilot will switch off the switch to extinguish the caption.

Most A/C have a system that feeds to the wings, I am thinking of Boeing and 146, in their systems the centre tank pumps transfer to the wings controlled by the high level float switches in the wings thus ensuring that the wing tanks are always full until such time as the centre and any aux tanks are empty, in the Douglas system the aux tanks feed the centre tank as previously described and when the aux tanks are empty the centre tank feeds directly to the two engines until it is empty and then the wing tanks feed until they are empty and nothing can heard except the gulping of the first officer. "How does this happen?" I hear those of you who are still awake cry, it's so simple it's delightful, the two pumps in the centre tank are in series nor in parallel as in the main wing tanks, because of this they produce a higher pressure and thus inhibit flow from the wing tanks until the centre tank is empty. I have got a picture of the system but can't seem to attach it to this response.

Ok from what you say Mark I gather (probably incorrectly ) that if a flight is undertaken with a full or partially full aux tank even if the aux tank switch remains in the off position the tank will still feed its contents, fine I can live with that, I can also live with the spurious warning when the aux tank is switched to auto, play pilot and put it in the tech log when we land.

Whilst we are on the subject of fuel, as far as I know the cross feed lever is only used when starting the L/H engine using the battery, or to correct an imbalance in flight or by engineers on the ground to move fuel around or defuel the A/C, the rest of the time I believe it stays in the off position, I stand to be corrected on this but I seem to recall a fatal accident some years ago when a pilot selected cross feed and forgot and both engines went very very quiet!

Ok now to the ADI flag, I wasn't an avionic engineer so this is PFM to me, ordinarily red flags are an indication that something isn't working, the phrase " the off flag appeared and the gyro ran down" is one I have read many times in the Tech Log, an example of this phenomenon can be initiated by pressing the test button (with the cursor) of the Rad Alt, the DH light illuminates and the off flag appears as it does in real life. Why all this talk of flags well, it is unusual to see anything red in a cockpit presentation unless there is a problem, when all is up and running there are no flags in view, the reason for this is obvious, in the event of a failure the appearance of something red should provide an instant indication to the driver.

All this said and there was a lot of it wasn't there? I am in awe of anybody who can produce a panel that is so close to the real thing, I am comparing the FS experience to the real life one, but please don't take my questions as criticism, with something as complex as this panel I appreciate that it would be a marathon task to duplicate the real life cockpit experience, I love the chance to get a look at the other side as it were and am very grateful for the opportunity to play with this wonderfully accurate representation.

with thanks

Mog


PS  I think I may have managed to add the diagram yipeeeee!!!

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

YEAH .... I´m aware as to how these systems are supposed to work/function "in the reaslworld, but, within the "virtual-FS-world", there´s always a bit of "BULLnuts & JELLYBEANS" .... or other such compromise/contradiction/discrepency .... and that´s regardless of how good/authentic any panel may both look and be made to operate simply due to the limited number of paramters available (practiceable) within FS and which can, easily, be manipulated

I´ll have another look at the ADI "LOCALIZER INDEX" (when I have time) for you though .... just in case there´s something I´ve possibly missed, or, misunderstood, that needs to be activated in order for it to be able to work properly.

In the meantime though....

"IF" you´re flying any of the HJG suplied DC9 simulations .... and using any of the HJG supplied "HILMERBY/CARTY DC9 panel/s" with these also .... then just follow the procedures which I´ve outlined in regard to panel/instrument configuration, as well as the necessary pre-T/O fuel adjustments, then trim, flap, and power settings, along with the recommended climb/cruise profile which I´ve outlinesd also (for each DC9 version .... because each one "IS" slightly different) and as part of my "DC9 BASIC FLYING GUIDES".

Do "ALL OF THAT" .... and you can´t possibly/shouldn´t ever go wrong at all

Mark C
BOG/COL

[mog]

Ok Mark thanks for that,

I am flying HJG machines using your flying guides, I got rid of the basic Hilmerby one because as you so correctly said it has no support and there were a lot of problems with it.

I did a Gatwick circuit yesterday in the DC9-50 and your right the aux tanks feed in the off position and in the auto position but with the amber caption, no problems I can live with that.It would be great if you could do something about the ADI flag if you get time, but if you don't "que sera, pas de problem"

Best wishes

Mog

[walterleo]

Hi MOG:

As you seem to drive for perfection in FS there is a "Mount Everest" in freeware: PT Tu-154M!

www.protu-154.net/index_e.html

Kind regards

Walter (aka WalterLeo in the form there)


P.S.: Will try out a DC-9 40!

[mog]

Hello again Walter,

I had a look at the link, at the mo. since I am a very newbie I am sticking to A/C I know something about! I have however put the link into my favourites for future reference, thanks for that.
Years ago I was at the Hannover air show and I saw Concordski, I have to say compared to the Concord it did look a little industrial! I seem to recall that the nose leg was constructed out of about four castings all held together by the sort of rivets used on the Titanic!

Thanks again for the link

Mog

[walterleo]

Attachment Deleted

Hi: Sometimes the Russian airplanes resemble a little the locomotives of the 40 ties, BUT they served their missions very well and were perfectly adapted to the harsh environment of their country of origin. And looking on the numbers they were equally safe or safer than the western siblings.

Flew the DC-9 40 had the same effect with the flag "runway" and the warning "low fuel press" on the transfer pump.

Kind regards

Walter

[mog]

Hi Walter,

Don't get me wrong, I am a great believer in the Victorian build ethic of work how strong it needs to be and then add a bit more, there are many buildings in this country still standing fro the 18th and 19th century built on that basis when many of the more "modern" examples built under the stress engineers eye have had to be pulled down! I worked for a few years on the BAC 111 now there's an aircraft that was built like the proverbial brick dunny!

Best wishes

Mog

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Just to try´n put this thread back on the centerline again .... in rgard to at least 1 of "MOGGIES" 2 recent queries

I´ve now had a much closer look at "MOGGIES" ADI observations (through performing another 2 AP controlled ILS/GS coupled approaches to landing using the HJG DC9-40 and the recommended panel/s for this simulation) .... AND .... it seems that he´s "quite correct" .... in that the red flag, located inside the bottom middle of the ADI instrument, does remain stationary.

The large black knob, located outside the bottom left of the ADI, and which is used (I think) to determine/test that the ADI is actually functional, "momentarily" (only) displays a similar red flag when selected .... SO .... it seems, to me, that this similar red flag (remaining constantly in view) inside the bottom middle of the ADI is actually "STUCK" .... but otherwise .... the ADI does perform faultlessly.

This particular issue is probably the result of a minor error/anomaly (these are very complex panels/gauges so a discrepency, or 2, like this, is, perhaps, understandable if not unavoidable) within the programming of this particular ADI gauge .... and would require an edit resulting in the release of a whole new DC9 PANEL GAUGES/CORE FILES package in order to be properly addressed .... if that´s possible at all.

In the meantime .... this particular issue will likely be evident within the ADI instruments featured in each of the current HJG DC9 panels.

Imagery of the original HILMERBY DC9 panel (on his own website) "does not" seem reveal this particular ADI flag issue .... but then again .... I think the ADI instrument represented within the HILMERBY/CARTY DC9 panels currently hosted by HJG represents a slightly different version of the same, or similar, instrument.

The LOCALIZER INDEX part of this ADI instrument seems to function "perfctly/correctly" though .... in that the green bar (visible behind the red flag) "does" move/indicate correctly in aoocordance with the similations allignment with both ILS and GS indications within the ADI and HSI instruments. The horizontal/latteral allignment of this green bar indicates how far left/right one is from the beam .... and its vertical allignment indicates how far above/below one is from the beam .... and in conjunction with other ADI and HSI indications.

Needless to say .... BUT .... for all of these indications to srtart to function/display correctly one must first enter the correct RWY/ILS frequency into the NAV 1 radio, then have the FD Mode Selector switch set to "AUTO APP" (it is difficult to read though due to its small size), and also then have the AP Mode Selector switch set to "ILS" too.

Apart from what I´ve stated above (within this particular posting at least) .... everything else (barring just the red ADI flag) does seem to work "PERFECTLY NORMALLY" .... within the FS limitations of course.

ALSO .... and so far as I can determine so far too .... don´t worry about using the AUXILIARY FUEL PUMP switch (in those particular HJG DC9 panels equipped with it) since the remaining/principal 6 FUEL PUMP switches are all that seem to be necessary/essential "within these DC9 simulations" at least.

These anomalies will in no way affect the flyability of any of these DC9 simulations .... or anyones enjoyment of these either .... "REST ASSURED"

Mark C
BOG/CO

[mog]

Ok Mark,
Thanks for looking at it, the last thing I want is to cause an issue over such a minor thing so I say lets put this down to experience, as you quite correctly said everything else works fine, I've done loads of ILS approaches and all have been ok, this is such a minor thing I say lets forget it and move on.

Many thanks for your trouble,

Mog

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

It´s a good thing that you did raise it "MOGGIE" because .... (a) I, personally, hadn´t identified that red patch as a flag (dunno why) .... and (b) your doing so has now alerted everyone to the fact that this discrepency does currently exist in rspect of that particular gauge in each of these DC9 panels

Hopefully we "might" be able to address is, successfully, in due course.

This ADI flag issue has actually (obviously) been there since the last DC9 PANEL GAUGES/CORE FILES package release .... during 2009/2010 I think it was.

I have none-the-less added this particular issue to the "KNOWN ISSUES" section of my "DC9 PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES" (the HJG online/forum manual for all of these DC9 simulations) .... see "SECTION 3 and PARAGRAPH 9" (item 3) within these notes .... SO .... everyone will/should now be aware of it.

Mark C
BOG/CO

[walterleo]

Hi MOG!

As you worked on the BAC 111: The DM flightsim freeware BAC 111 is one of the best classic airplanes, bells, whistles systems all included.

www.dmflightsim.co.uk/bac_1-11.htm

Enjoy!

Walter