Aileron behavior in L1011 model

[mikethepilot]

Hello,

I noticed this today while flying the L1011 V2 model when I had more time to fly with the airplane and take a look to almost everything. Now the thing I noticed is that the L1011 ailerons only seem to move only when the flaps are deployed, if not the ailerons in the airplane will remain in their neutral position despite any input I make at the control. This behavior is only seen in the outer ailerons near the wingtips and not the main aileron in the middle of the wing.

Is the aileron behavior described above normal?

Thanks for any clarifications!

[George Carty - HJG]

I don't know the specifics for the L-1011, but I do know that on many jetliners the outer ailerons are used only for extra control authority at low speeds – this may be why they only work when some flap is deployed.

George

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

"THANKS" for your help/input there George

The outboard ailerons (to which you're referring), on both wings, do only work/animate when the flaps are extended .... within the range of any increment from LE SLATS (only) to FULL FLAP deployment and in response to left/right stick input.

"The 3 outboard spoiler panels only", as well as the inboard aileron panels also, on both wings, animate together in response to left/right stick input only.

"All 4 spoiler panels", on both wings, then animate/deploy fully, and auomatially, in response to the spoiler keyboard command being applied, or, main gear contact with the ground upon landing and only once armed.

2 of The 3 outboard 3 spoiler panels (only), on both wings, can also be deployed, incrementally, and in accordance with the spoiler detentes indicated on the center pedstal sub panel, by manually postioning the spoiler lever at each detente .... if using the recommended HJG/CARTY/MITCHELL L1011 panel options for these simulations of course.

I suspect what's evident, here, is probably the result of some form of built-in restriction associated in regard current FDE/3D model interelationship with the VISTALINERS L1011.

As mentioned within my briefing notes .... associated with the last HJG website update notice (during which these revised/V2 L1011 simulations were released) .... "absolutely no modificfations" were made to the original 3D model, so, it, and every animation associated with it also, continues to operate precisely as previous/V1.

The FDE editing that was applied to this L1011 V2 update was primarily panel (autopilot in particular) related and of a nature that couldn't (shouldn't) impact any of the 3D model animations .... so far as I'm aware

"IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY" .... this particular aileron behaviour is also applies to each of the current B727 3D models as well .... and which were also inherited from VISTALINERS. It may be intentional/the way things are intended to function, but, I'm not entirely certain.

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Here's a few quick images to try'n explain Mike's observations (for the benefit of anyone less familiar) .... as well as my own associated commentary in regard to these ....


LEFT WING PANELS - NO FLAPS) (3 outboard spoiler panels raised slightly, outboard aileron in neutral position, and the right inboard aileron down slightly in response to control input).


RIGHT WING PANELS - NO FLAPS) (3 outboard spoiler panels raised slightly, outboard aileron in neutral position, and the left inboard aileron down slightly in response to control input).


LEFT WING PANELS - FLAPS EXTENDED) (3 outboard spoiler panels and the outboard aileron all raised slightly, and right inboard aileron down slightly, in response to control input).


RIGHT WING PANELS - FLAPS EXTENDED) (3 outboard spoiler panels and the outboard aileron all raised slightly, and left inboard aileron down slightly, in response to control input).



.... and the same as described above, but, from a "slightly elevated" perspective this time ....


LEFT WING PANELS - FLAPS EXTENDED (3 outboard spoiler panels and the outboard aileron all raised slightly, and right inboard aileron down slightly, in response to control input).


RIGHT WING PANELS - FLAPS EXTENDED) (3 outboard spoiler panels and the outboard aileron all raised slightly, and left inboard aileron down slightly, in response to control input).


LEFT WING PANELS - NO FLAPS (3 outboard spoiler panels raised slightly, outboard aileron in neutral position, and the right inboard aileron down slightly, in response to control input).


RIGHT WING PANELS - NO FLAPS (3 outboard spoiler panels raised slightly, outboard aileron in neutral position, and the left inboard aileron down slightly, in response to control input).



Hopefully the above imagery is sufficiently clear as to clarify some of the "minor" aileron/wing control surface animations described

JUST A COUPLE OF OTHER DETAILS TO POSSIBLY BEAR IN MIND ALSo ....

Visual movement of either the outboard ailerons and inboard spolier panels may be more evident during manual flight control and in response to left/right stick inputs .... HOWEVER .... visual movement of these flight control surfaces during AP controlled flight modes might be less evident in response to AP commanded input.

ALSO ....

The angle of view, in external FS viewing mode, will determine (to some extent) just how visible some of these animations might appear at any time too

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[Mike Monce - HJG]

I would second George's comment. At speeds above approach and T/O, the outboard ailerons on airliners are "the last resort". The force the ailerons provide is proportional to the airspeed squared. And the torque the surface provides to roll the aircraft is the product of the force x distance from the axis of rotation; in this case the centerline of the aircraft. The outboard ailerons have a generally larger surface area and combine that with v^2, and their relatively large distance from the roll axis, and the possibility exists of untended snap rolls through the use of the outboard ailerons above low speed regime.

So, even if Vistaliners made an unintentional error in animation, I would consider it a feature and not a bug


Mike

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Actually .... I think you're both "quite right" .... George and Mike.

That could, very well, be the way things are represented/intended to work

Mark C
AKL/NZ

[christrott]

The lockout of the outer ailerons on the L1011 when the flaps are retracted is intended and proper to the L1011-1.

The later L1011-500 had an "active aileron" system that allowed the outer ailerons to be used by the onboard flight computer to reduce drag and improve ride quality, but were still not used by the pirmary flight control systems until flap deployment was initiated.

[mikethepilot]

Thank you all for the explanation, I cannot believe I did not noticed this feature was on the Vistaliners model all along (I still have an older desktop with FS2004 that had the original VL BETA model and the behavior was there).

Again thanks for clarifying.

As for the flight I did on Sunday I must say the new AutoPilot system is an improvement over the previous one (and that one was very good as well), although the changes made me more involved with the airplane and learning the new AP features. Overall a great job!

[aerofoto - HJG Admin]

Mike ....

I edited your last posting .... only to delete your re-copying of my own imagery with its associated comentary .... simply in the interest of avoiding, what some might, otherwise, deem to be unnecessary duplication or repetitive-reading/material

Mark C
AKL/NZ