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Post by doulgaslover on Dec 12, 2011 9:36:14 GMT
Hi Guys, Thanks for the great work on the 707-128 aircraft. I especially like the switch sounds and takeoff config warning sounds now included! Anyhow, I downloaded the 707-128 this weekend and decided to take a flight from Kennedy Intl. (Using default FS9 scenery at the PanAm world port thingy in a Panam Livery 128B), and whilst arriving a Dulles Intl, I noticed the auto flight had issues taking a descent after being in altitude hold. E.g. Altitude hold ON at 35000Ft, then off, set a 1800fpm descent, and it only goes down at 500fpm. I tried disengaging, setting trim, re-engaging to no avail. That trim sound also annoyed me  Soooo, what I'd like to know is, Why (y?) would this occur. Never happened when I used to fly the 320C and 720 versions. Note that I use the 1965 panels and used VOR navigation for the flight, since I'm not INS proficient yet! |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 12, 2011 18:07:47 GMT
There's nothing wrong with any of the B707/720 panel AP's .... but .... they do need to be used properly ....
To enable descent .... the AP ALT HLD switch must first be selected "OFF" (do not disconnect the AP master switch). A specific ROD can then being commanded "manually" by mousing either the left or right thumb wheels loacated on both the left and right sides of the AP sub panel. Clickibg in the region designated "DOWN" placard indices negative rate .... and cliicking in the region of "UP placard induces positive rate .... both roughly in accordance with an approximately 100 FPM per click responce. These AP thumb wheels should be moused cautiosly .... until the desired ROD has been acquired. That's the way the AP is supposed to be used during descent and in AP controlled flight mode.
During manual flight control (AP disconnected) .... positive and negative rate must be set and controlled "manually". In manual flight mode it's recommended the "HOME" (= Trim down) and "END" (= Trim up) keyboard commands (WINDOWS XP PRO) be used to set Trim, adjust Pitch, and control both ROC/ROD as these, unlike "some" joystick/control device calibrations, result in much smoother response to input.
The Trim Wheel sound is, intentionally, trigggered "automatically" in response to any adjustment/Pitch change .... BUT .... only in manual flight control mode. Its "authentic" .... in terms of both tone and volume .... so we won't be removing it.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by doulgaslover on Dec 13, 2011 8:02:18 GMT
There's nothing wrong with any of the B707/720 panel AP's .... but .... they do need to be used properly .... To enable descent .... the AP ALT HLD switch must first be selected "OFF" (do not disconnect the AP master switch). A specific ROD can then being commanded "manually" by mousing either the left or right thumb wheels loacated on both the left and right sides of the AP sub panel. Clickibg in the region designated "DOWN" placard indices negative rate .... and cliicking in the region of "UP placard induces positive rate .... both roughly in accordance with an approximately 100 FPM per click responce. These AP thumb wheels should be moused cautiosly .... until the desired ROD has been acquired. That's the way the AP is supposed to be used during descent and in AP controlled flight mode. During manual flight control (AP disconnected) .... positive and negative rate must be set and controlled "manually". In manual flight mode it's recommended the "HOME" (= Trim down) and "END" (= Trim up) keyboard commands (WINDOWS XP PRO) be used to set Trim, adjust Pitch, and control both ROC/ROD as these, unlike "some" joystick/control device calibrations, result in much smoother response to input. The Trim Wheel sound is, intentionally, trigggered "automatically" in response to any adjustment/Pitch change .... BUT .... only in manual flight control mode. Its "authentic" .... in terms of both tone and volume .... so we won't be removing it. Mark C AKL/NZ O.K. Thanks. I was doing exactly as you prescribed... However, the best the AP could do was 500fpm. Dialling in -3500fpm seemed to get me only 1500 descent rate. By the way, the trim wheel sound happens with AP on or off, no difference. I may remove, since it is just as annoying as the Wilco 737's trim sound (constant sneezing/WHOOSH sound!!!) I'll if I can fix things myself |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 13, 2011 10:29:29 GMT
WELL .... there's something you're not doing right .... OR .... maybe you've got something installed that's possibly preventing something else from working properly/as it should.
On our B707/720 panels one can't "dial-up" a specificic ROC/ROD in terms of setting a particular numerical value.
One can only set ROC/ROC using the AP thumb wheels .... during AP controlled flight mode.
What panel are you using .... AND .... precisely which particular B707 aircraft base pack are you using it with ?
I've been flying and testing "each progressive release" of our B707/720 line for almost 6 years now .... and simply can't replicate any condition resulting in ROD/ROC being restricted .... in either AP controlled or manual flught modes.
It's "your call" .... but .... removing stuff like that is only going to result in you're denying yourself a significant piece of reality.
Airliner flightdecks .... older airliners types in particular .... are "NOT" quiet places.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by doulgaslover on Dec 14, 2011 7:34:14 GMT
WELL .... there's something you're not doing right .... OR .... maybe you've got something installed that's possibly preventing something else from working properly/as it should. On our B707/720 panels one can't "dial-up" a specificic ROC/ROD in terms of setting a particular numerical value. One can only set ROC/ROC using the AP thumb wheels .... during AP controlled flight mode. What panel are you using .... AND .... precisely which particular B707 aircraft base pack are you using it with ? I've been flying and testing "each progressive release" of our B707/720 line for almost 6 years now .... and simply can't replicate any condition resulting in ROD/ROC being restricted .... in either AP controlled or manual flught modes. It's "your call" .... but .... removing stuff like that is only going to result in you're denying yourself a significant piece of reality. Airliner flightdecks .... older airliners types in particular .... are "NOT" quiet places. Mark C AKL/NZ O.K. Here is some additional information that you will probably "like" to have: I'm flying the 707-128B with the ONLY base pack available for it and I'm pretty certain I'm using the 707-128B 1965 panels... There is a very slight chance that I am using the 138B panels though. However, as you have said elsewhere, that should only affect engine display values and V-Speed calculations, not flight model/autoflight (etc) |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 14, 2011 9:39:08 GMT
There's no B707-128B aircraft base pack .... SO .... I presume you're meaning "B707-120B".
"IF" you're using the B707-120B aircraft base pack .... then you should only be using either one of the 2 following panel versions with these aircraft ....
B707-120B
B707-120B "1965"
Do not use any other panel versions with either the B707-120B or B707-120B(F) aircraft base packs, or, you're going to get mismatches of the type which can lead to problems.
Each B707/720 version is different .... that's why they'tre represnted by seperated aircraft base packs/FDE .... and separate panels .... and it's important these are matched correctly .... or you're going to get mismatches of the type which can lead to problems.
Out of curiosity .... I've, this evening, performed a number of flight tests using each of the above panels and aircraft base packs.
For me, both are performing faultlessly. in both manual and AP controlled flight modes.
During this evenings re-testing .... I paid special attention to flight behaviour during AP controlled flight modes .... particularly in regard to the selectable ROC/ROD using the AP thumb wheels.
Again I can't find any issues whatsoever that we need to reconcile.
During climb I was able to acquire any ROC I wanted .... though I purposely didn't exceed 2000 FPM .... but .... could have if I desired. And during descent I was, once again, able to do the same also .... though, again, purposely desiring not exceed 2000 FPM.
I regret to say (or rather I'm pleased to confirm for HJG) that whatever issue you're experiencing that's apparently restricting your auto-flight performance is unlikely to be one that's the result of anything associated our simulation/s.
Thinking about this situation carefully ....
I do, now, recall, several months back, we had someone comment on this forum in regard to a similar issue in respect apparently restricted AP controlled ROD. What I particularly recall about that query was the poster later advised that whatever issue caused his problem affected not only his HJG aircraft .... but rather .... everything he had installed. I recall he eventually resolved his issue, but, since it wasn't an HJG related one, I can't recall how he actually got around it or which particular aircraft type it affected.
I'm wondering if your issue might be the same as his experience.
A question then arises in regard to what have you recently installed that might be causative of such problems ?
Again .... as re-confirmed by my own testing this evening .... and unless there's something you're still not doing right/misunderstanding perhaps .... there's absolutely nothing wrong with any of the AP flight mode performances associated with HJG B707 simulations.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 14, 2011 9:48:27 GMT
Just 1 thing I perhaps do need to check ....
During AP controlled flight mode .... and when clicking on the AP thumb wheel in order to set any specific ROD .... I want to confirm that you're actually "clicking that thumb wheel constantly" until you've actually achieved/acquired whatever ROD, you desire .... and that you're not just clicking it once or twice only and expecting results that way.
Each individual mouse click should result in a roughly 100 FPM increment response in regard to ROC/ROD.
The rest is as I've mentioned in my earlier postings above !
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by doulgaslover on Dec 15, 2011 4:22:20 GMT
Just 1 thing I perhaps do need to check .... During AP controlled flight mode .... and when clicking on the AP thumb wheel in order to set any specific ROD .... I want to confirm that you're actually "clicking that thumb wheel constantly" until you've actually achieved/acquired whatever ROD, you desire .... and that you're not just clicking it once or twice only and expecting results that way. Each individual mouse click should result in a roughly 100 FPM increment response in regard to ROC/ROD. The rest is as I've mentioned in my earlier postings above ! Mark C AKL/NZ When I set a descent/climb, I will click that thumb wheel 18 times in a row to achieve my desired FPM value, sometimes with a minor adjustment here or there. Clicking once or twice and expecting 1800fpm would be quite a silly idea, although, I'm sure one or two people would have done it in the past! |
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 15, 2011 4:35:07 GMT
That sounds .... "about right" .... in that it could take that many consecutive clicks to set/acquire greater than 2000 FPM ROC/ROD .... though as I mentioned above .... the more general response is that 1 click equals a "roughly" 100 FPM increase/decrease in ROC/ROD during AP controlled flight. There could be some variation in this though in respect of devices/controllers. If you can do what you say you're able to do .... then may I assume you've got it working more-or-less as I've prescribed ? That's why I mentioned it. It's just part of the process of tryng to leave no stone un-turned (if possible) .... and in the interest of just trying to be thorough too ! Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by doulgaslover on Dec 15, 2011 6:36:28 GMT
Speaking of no stones unturned....
I probably should have mentioned that during that occasion (during descent) the AP kept trying to trim the elevator/stabilizer. I looked at the pedestal, whose trim indicator was jumping from say +5 to +2 then back again to +5! This was probably the source of the problem.
Today, I attempted the same flight, (KJFK-KIAD; Kennedy Intl to Washington Dulles Intl), with no issue.
Actually, the only issue I had was landing, where, I received a flashing "Master Warning" light. I had my spoilers armed (to shoosh the "WARNING" light), my flaps @ 50 and was near the VREF speed. Upon landing, the light stops flashing, and I have to deploy the spoilers, then engage Reverse Thrust (which obviously is manual!)
Anyhow, thanks for all the help you've given my Aerofoto! Its very much appreciated
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 15, 2011 7:00:34 GMT
An illuminated MASTER WARNING lamp and its associated "BEEP - BEEP - BEEP" tone can only be triggered by any one of the following conditions ....
- Throttle advanced more than 20% with spoilers deployed !
- Take-off or climb power set with 40 degrees or more of flaps set !
- Gear retraction speed limit (270 KIAS) exceeded !
- Flap retraction speed limit exceeded (230 KIAS for first notch, lower for higher flap settings) !
- Descending at less than 160 KIAS with less than 40 degrees of flaps !
- Throttles advanced to high power on the ground, but flaps fully retracted or at 40 degrees or more !
- Gear retracted at less than 135 KIAS !
I'd say .... being new to our B707/720/C135 simulations .... you're probably still somewhere within the necessary learning curve required to actually be able to master these simulations. They're not difficult panels .... but .... they're not necessarily easy either .... especially if one's new to them.
What I suggest you do is ....
Take some time to familiarize yourself with our online/forum B707 manual .... in the form of our B707 PANEL INSTALLATION & HANDLING NOTES posting .... which you'll currently find on the ABOUT HJG AIRCRAFT forum page. These notes go a long way beyond explaining installation procedures .... to cover almost everything that's essential to be known in order to be able to enjoy these panels/simulations properly. You'll find similar notes for most of our aircraft on the same forum page .... OR .... on the respective aircraft support forum pages in the case of our more recently introduced aircraft subjects.
Mark C
AKL/NZ
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Post by doulgaslover on Dec 15, 2011 9:48:25 GMT
Well, if I have landing power set (around 50-60%), without "Spoilers Armed" I get the Beep. Set it, and the Beep stays quiet, but the Master Warning stays on.
I have the Flaps at 50 and am flying close the the V-speed, and on the glide path! So I guess the light flashing is from having the power up "too high" by the aircraft's standards.
Still a perfect landing though, although the AP has issues capturing the GP at KIAD (Dulles Intl), due to the low altitude, so I get a Glideslope warning (which sounds more like "Lide-Shlope..." (!) )
But I am VERY thankful of the kind help given by the HJG team, which is really nice when you have more complex freeware aircraft.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 15, 2011 11:42:09 GMT
"NO PROBLEM" .... George CARTY has done a "FANTASTIC JOB" programing all of our B707/720/C135 simulations. Keep practicing that "TECHNIQUE" though .... and .... eventually you'll find that "practice makes PERFECT". What a lot of folk seem to forget is that these old first generation jetliners don't fly .... and can't really be flown .... like the more modern stuff. We're talking 1950's/60's technology and procedures here  Mark C AKL/NZ |
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Post by walterleo on Dec 19, 2011 17:56:03 GMT
Hi Mark:
Your comments deserve to be read more than once. But besides the feeling of younger people as we are that a modern airplane is a dream-ship which does all by itself its still an airplane and airplanes in false hands or mistreated can bite.
The trim in motion sound is an important point of safety, cause runaway trim downed more than one plane. Therefore up to now painting trim-wheels with white stripes is also a good idea. And the respect of some of my friends who are really airline captains for the trim and its use is well deserved.
Walter
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Dec 19, 2011 21:49:38 GMT
I was really just seizing the opportunity to comment generally (as I occasionally do) .... rather than specifically in regard to the trim subject of this thread .... in respect of my comments about these older aircraft apparently flying, and needing to be flown, differently from much of than the more modern stuff I know the author of this particular post hasn't requested anything (other than help and guidence), but, I have, "many times" in the past, seen comments on these forum pages, and received emails from some folk whom seem want "all sorts of inappropriate modern kit" in their B707/720 panels .... of a type that's more applicable to AIRBUS and later BOEING production aircraft than was ever installed on the classic B707's/720's .... or even the CV880's/CV990's, and most of the DC8's for that matter too. Comming back to the TRIM WHEEL though .... and "runway TRIM" in particular ....  ;D Here's a few comments regarding this by a QANTAS captain (the late Geoff BROWN) whom was one of the first Australian pilots to be trained on the B707 .... transitioning from B707-138 to the -138B, and then the 320C, after having flown both types of CONSTELLATION in QF service .... Mark C AKL/NZ |
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;D