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Post by plabbe77 on Nov 3, 2012 19:21:24 GMT
Hi, I've just starting flying the L1011 (-200F). My first couple of flights were great. These were just short hops with nearly full payload, but not much fuel on board. I was able to climb up to FL330 with no issues, and cruise at .81 - .82. However, I've since flown a couple of longer flights with more fuel on board (still about 50000 under MGTOW), and I'm finding some weird performance issues. 1. At some point above FL200 (haven't narrowed down to an exact altitude yet), the AC just starts to yaw violently left and right almost like it wants to stall. Sometimes the oscillations are so bad, it spins nearly 180 degrees. 2. Cruise speed seems limited to around mach .77... Anything above that, and the aircraft starts so shudder violently as if I am way overspeed.
The issues seem to be much less pronounced if I'm down around FL200. I've also confirmed that it is not an AP issue. The same thing happens when hand-flying the plane.
Engine outputs and AOA all seem to be normal
I haven't been able to figure out why this was not an issue on my first two flights. At first I thought it was a weight and balance issue, but if that were the case, the issue should resolve itself as I burn fuel during the longer flights.
Please let me know if you have any ideas for me. I love the L1011, but at the moment, it is basically unusable. Thanks!
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 3, 2012 20:20:56 GMT
There has "NEVER .... EVER" been such a report about any of the L1011's over the entire 2 years during which HJG have hosted these simulations .... and as this particular forum SUPPORT page will confirm. I assume you're flying the HJG simulations in FS2004. I also assume you're using files (panel/s and FDE primarily) obtained from this/the HJG website .... and not versions of these which might have been uploaded elsewhere. I must also additionally assume that you've made no changes, whatsoever, to the FDE (AIRCRAFT.CFG and AIR.FILE) as supplied by HJG. And I must also assume that you've got your aircraft type base packs/engine and aircraftpanel/engine type versions correctly assigned .... as follows .... Your point which interests me most is as follows .... You say you got up to FL330 previously .... with no such issues .... BUT .... have encountered the problem you're experiencing only recently "THE THING IS" .... if it worked fine before then it should continue to "WORK FINE". I need to say that, "in FS", it shouldn't, really, matter a great deal as to whether or not these particular simulatios are being flown heavy or light at the altitude you indicate .... FL330. Flying heavy, and high (at this particular altitude) shouldn't result in any such problems, whatsoever. In fact having tested each of the L1011's .... "VERY THOROUGHLY" .... and for weeks prior to their release here .... I've only ever known them to be "perfectly stable", or, they'd never have ben released here. Flying heavy, and high, with these simulations, will/should only affect airspeed and engine thrust indications .... at the very most .... in that the thrust indications will be slightly higher and the airspeed slightly slower as a result .... and from my own, personal, oberservations. The fact you got as high as, you say, you did previously, without any such instability, "suggests", to me, that something may have have "changed" on you PC .... or within you FS installation .... or become corrupted in respect of your L1011 installation/s at least. Have you tried deleting .... and then reinstalling "EVERYTHING" ? Have you also tried loading fuel and payload in accordance with my own "BasiC Flying Guides" for the L1011's .... as posted at the end of the following thread .... ? tonymadgehjg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=supportpage&action=display&thread=3888 These advisories represent how I, personally, tested and continue fly each of the L1011's. Final thoughts .... At around FL310 you should be cruising at around MACH 0.82 .... of course the L1011's are capable of going faster/much faster than that (I've had "some of them" .... each one performs slightly differently .... up to MACH 0.89) and without any problems at all. HOwEVER .... if you get "too fast" .... or .... "too slow" .... then problems, such, as you describe, could possible develop. Try my recommendations in regard to "fuel distributions" (in particular) .... and then altitude and airspeed too .... and see how you get along Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by plabbe77 on Nov 3, 2012 20:32:17 GMT
Thanks for the quick response Mark. You've provided me with some good points to check out. I'll do some more troubleshooting on my system, and let you know what I find.
Just to be clear though, I didn't mean to offend. I realize that this issue hasn't been reported before (I searched the forums before I posted), so I was really trying to ask "What am I doing wrong?" as opposed to "What's wrong with this model." I'm definitely a fan of HJG, and have never had issues with HJG aircraft before, so I'm sure it is some kind of issue on my end.
Thanks, Phil
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 3, 2012 22:42:31 GMT
"ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENCE" interpreted .... whatsoever My intention was merely to communicate that whatever the cause of your experience may be .... it's "COMPLETELY UNKNOWN/PREVIOUSLY UNREPORTED" .... in respect of these simulations. See how you get along with what I've "suggested" you may need to look at though Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 4, 2012 5:33:23 GMT
I had a bit of spare time this afternoon (a rarety for me lately ), so, I used it to perform some testing/retesting using the VISTALINERS/HJG L1011 simulations. For the test I undertook I used the "L1011-200" version (this being one of the "heavier" versions of these aircraft, though not the heaviest HJG represents) .... with it's recommended panel option too. I purposely .... for the benefit of this particular test .... "DID NOT" make any payload or fuel adjustments, so, the simulation was, effectively, "way overweight" .... but .... I wanted to see, for myself, just how it would perform in this scenario. Using my basic flying guide/L1011 flying tutorial .... the AP controlled climb (with the AT set to maintain a climb airspeed of some 285 KTS), all the way up to FL310, remained "ABSOLUTELY S-M-O-O-T-H".... as did the simulations cruise performance at this altitude after ALT CAPTURE also. Staying at FL310 .... and using the AT .... I then increased the cruising airspeed to MACH 0.82 .... and the simulation continued to remain "S-M-O-O-T-H" .... as it continued to do also when I further increased the AT controlled cruising airspeed to MACH 0.84. I then climbed to FL330 .... to observe what happened there. Again the simulation climbed "S-M-O-O-T-H-L-Y" .... and continued remain perfectly "S-M-O-O-T-H" during aP controlled flight at this altitude also and with AT set to maintain airspeed of MACH 0.82 .... and it still remained "SMOOTH" after I further increased the AT controlled airspeed to MACH 0.84. So far as I can determine .... the VISTALINERS/HJG supplied L1011 files are "in the clear". It's a "V-E-R-Y S-M-O-O-T-H" simulation in all respects. I'd like to know the following from you though .... 1. What L1011 aircraft base pack/engine type version are you currently using and experiencing your particular problem with.
2. What L1011 aircraft panel/engine type version are you using with your selected aircraft base pack/engine type option.
3. What is the "name" and "date" of the AIR.FILE version inside the aircraft base pack you are experiencing problem with .... just right click on the AIR.FILE then select properties in order to determine this "last modified" date of this particular file. PLEASE ADVISE Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by garryrussell on Nov 4, 2012 8:02:37 GMT
Are you starting FS with a default aircarft or using a saved flight with an add on??
This can cause problems if not as the default aircraft 're set' the sim to the base values that addons modify if there is any special coding written.
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Post by plabbe77 on Nov 4, 2012 16:40:42 GMT
Hi Mark, First, to answer your questions: - I'm using FSX, not FS2004
- I'm using the following AC model: l1011_tristar_200f_rr_rb211-524b
- With the following panel: l1011_tristar_panel_std_inst_rr_rb211-524b_v1.1
- Airfile is L1011_200.air 10/20/2012 13:37
Per your suggestion, I re-downloaded, and re-installed the files. For once, I even followed the instructions word-for-word! Unfortunately, that didn't help. I did some additional testing,myself, and I have to say you were correct in that it does not seem to be a weight and balance issue. It also does not seem to be an altitude issue. It appears to be down to speed. I can cruise at any reasonable altitude as long as I keep my speed around mach .77 or .78. As soon as I get up to .79 or .80, the plane starts to bank very slightly back and forth. If I maintain this speed, the banking gets more and more pronounced until I am spinning wildly left and right. As I stated before, this happens with or without autopilot. As soon as I get my speed back down to .77, the oscillations stop, and the plane flies very smoothly again. I wish I could show you exactly what it's doing... I have never experienced anything like it in FSX before. Maybe I'll try to take a video or something. Also, I've noticed that around .79 - .80 I typically start getting that little overspeed "stutter" that FSX does (the nose shakes up and down slightly). This lead me to think that my problems are possibly caused by incorrect speed readings - perhaps I am actually going much faster than what my guages are telling me (possibly from using an incorrect aircraft\engine\panel combination)... But I think I have all the correct files. One last point is that I need to take back my statement that my first two flights did not have issues... I suspect I did not actually hit mach .81 as I had previously stated... I thought I had selected that cruise speed, but I really don't recall for sure. Given my recent test flights, I suspect I was actually flying slower. I'm going to keep troubleshooting when I can. I love model, and want to continue flying it. I think my next step will be to install a completely different L1011 model (the -1 or -100), and see how that behaves. Let me know if you have any other suggestions. Thanks, Phil
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Post by plabbe77 on Nov 4, 2012 16:42:27 GMT
Are you starting FS with a default aircarft or using a saved flight with an add on?? This can cause problems if not as the default aircraft 're set' the sim to the base values that addons modify if there is any special coding written. I typically start with my last saved flight... I'll try starting from scratch w/ a default plane. Thanks for the suggestion!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2012 18:15:09 GMT
I never start with saved flight. I always start with new flight.
Aharon
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 4, 2012 21:08:20 GMT
Unfortunately I can't help you so much in regard to FSX performance and compatibilities (since I'm not an FSX user) .... other than to say that the L1011's, and the panels HJG offer fior these simulations, are FSX compatible. I think there's an FSX-specific CFG file associated with the panel though .... and which needs to be activated over the default FS2004 active version that these files download with. "THAT/THIS" .... could very well be the cause of you problem.It's not recommended that flights using these simulations .... and using the panels/guages offered by HJG in particular .... be started, or continued, as part of any previously saved flight. "ALWAYS" start each flight fresh .... is the minimum recommended procedure.A problem can, conceivably, occur also .... if the FS "Time Compresssion" mode is used/applied in order to reduce the time required to complete very long flights .... and which can result in stability/oscillation related issues with some simulations. By not starting each new flight using the default MSFS CESSNA (although I do recommend it be done simply becasuse its like an FS "RESET") .... or other default MSFS aircraft type either .... "WILL NOT/SHOULD NOT" (in FS2004 at least) result in oscillation/stability issues. I went straight to the L1011 during yesterdays test, but, witheld that information .... just to see how this thread might develop "IF" the L1011 .... any FS add-on aircraft for that matter .... is loaded "after" using another add-on aircraft within the same FS session, then, it's possible that oscillation/stability issues might (not always though) develop, as FS will always try to apply the parameters associated with a previous flight .... to the next following flight/aircraft selection ..... within the same session. In this particular case it "IS" recommended/desirable to load a default MSFS aircraft type between change-overs from one add-on FS aircraft type .... to the next .... and within the same FS session. From what you've told us today .... I'm pretty sure, now, that the origin or your particular problem/experience "might/could be" in regard to trying to fly the L1011's from a previously saved FS scenario .... and which, probably, isn't a very good idea. Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on Nov 5, 2012 18:27:28 GMT
And of course you are sure that your general setting is Indicated Air Speed?
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Post by plabbe77 on Nov 6, 2012 3:52:20 GMT
Hi, I had a moment to do another test flight... This is getting really interesting! This time a removed the default flight from entry from my fsx.cfg. Started the sim, and verified that the free flight settings were the "default defaults" (Aircraft = Aircreation Ultralight, Location = Friday Harbor). - I then selected the L1011-200F, my home airport, and clear skies weather theme.
- I selected the default payload w/ 50% fuel in all tanks.
- I took off, and climbed to 34000.
- I accelerated to mach .82 with no issue (this is real progress!!).
- I accelerate to mach .83... Still no issues.
- Unfortunately, as soon as the airspeed indicator hits .84, the issue re-surfaces... I see the ball in the turn coordinator start to slip back and forth, and it gets progressively worse until I dial the speed back to .83.
I noticed that engine 3 readings were slightly higher than 1 and 2, so I thought it might an asymetric thrust issue... The engines weren't really that far off, but I figured it was worth investigating anyway. So, I switched off the AT, and manually advanced the throttles so the N1 readings were in sync, and my indicated speed was .84... Again, as soon as the indicator hit .84, the oscillations started. I've been in the software QA business for about 10 years now, and I have to say this has turned into one of the weirder issues I have investigated. I just don't understand why re-setting the default flight would only partially resolve the issue... To me it should have either resolved it completely or not at all. My initial thought was that this was either an issue with my setup or just something that I was doing wrong in flying the aircraft. However, based on the fact that I have never experienced this issue with any other model, my gut feeling now is that this has to either be a bug or a compatibility issue between the model and "something" in my environment (e.g.: a third party add-on such as Rex Essential, FSUIPC, etc.) I also tested the -100F model, and got the same exact results. I'm not really sure what else I can do besides wipe my system, and re-load everything from scratch (which I am not going to do). But, if I'm ever able to completely resolve the issue, I'll let you know. If you have any other suggestions for me, I'll be happy to try them out. Whatever the case, I can at least fly at a reasonable speed now, so I can continue using the L1011, and that makes me happy. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it, and shows the pride and care you guys have for your products. Cheers, Phil PS - In response to Dan's question: Yes. My sim is configured to display IAS.
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Post by aerofoto - HJG Admin on Nov 6, 2012 8:43:57 GMT
That's disappointing .... because I would like to have learned that your recent experience was the result of flying the simulation as a previously saved flight, or, FS time compression. The issues you raise "could" be common to just "your own installation of the L1011 and set up" (by that I mean whatever's going-on in the background of your system or FS that might, potentially be interfering with the simulation) .... OR .... to FSX only .... although I "don't think so" in the case of FSX .... simply because this/your issue is quite unheard of previously, and because .... so far as I'm aware ..... there's absolutely no reason why these L1011 simulations shouldn't behave in FSX equally as they do in FS2004. I had an hour (or so) free tonight, so, I re-tested the "L1011-200F" .... strictly in accordance with my Basic Flying Guide recommendations .... BUT ... in FS2004 of course. My test flight was set up loaded as follows .... My climb procedure was as follows .... And these are the performance I logged at each of the various speeds at FL310 .... The L1011's "can" go that fast .... but .... typically wouldn't be flown much beyond MACH 0.81/0.82 for reasons of both safety and economy .... I believe. I purposely flew the simulation "B--A--L--L--S T--O T--H--E W--A--L--L" ;D during this test .... just to see what would happen/how the simulation would respond, but, all flight behavior (both internally from the panel as well as externally also) was observed to remain perfectly/beautifully stable right throughout the indicated range .... AND .... all engine indications remained uniform, for each of their parameters, across all 3 engines also. In fact all flight parameters remained "pretty much" as I first logged them, during pre-release testing, just on 2 years ago. I'm also using FSUIPC .... in fact it's a vital component for the HJG L1011 panels "IF" one wants to see a Weather Radar unit that actually works. SO THEN .... I guess that's me all out of input/suggestions/advice .... barring someting I may have overlooked "on this thread", but, I don't think I have. Mark C AKL/NZ
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2012 13:32:32 GMT
I have been using Vistaliners L1011s for seven years in three different laptops and had never experienced any problem with that plane in many flights except three occasions of engine failure in middle of flight which I was fortunate to be able to restart or manage to land with two engines.
Plabbe77,
Why would you do that? Why messing up fsx.cfg?? Since you said you have been in software Q&A business for 10 years, I suspect that you must have done more modifications to cfgs or settings of FSX or planes. OR you must have started FSX the wrong way.
I think your problem stems from some modification that you must have made to FSX or to any plane!! Also, did you take look at settings of the stimulated failures of FSX??? When my engine failed for no reason once, I always double checked default settings of stimulated failures of FSX to make sure there were no stimulated failures before I dismissed the engine failure as extremely rare one time bug glitch.
Aharon
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Post by Dan K. Hansen on Nov 6, 2012 16:27:34 GMT
And just to be sure... did you get the L1011 from our site, or from another site...??
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